Wikipedia:NORN

This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Wikipedia: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

Please post new topics in a new section. When a thread is closed, you can tag it with {{resolved}}.

Archives

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John C. Huang

John C. Huang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) has done nothing but post his OR theories about relativity. He has been warned about this several times by several people. On 3 June he was given a final warning. Since then he has twice posted his theory to User talk:Skeletor 0. —teb728 t c 22:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC) Is this the proper forum for this report? I don’t see any reports like it. —teb728 t c 22:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

An editor on the Help desk expressed the opinion that NOR applied only to article space. So I guess I should address that misconception here.

Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Maintain Wikipedia policy explicitly applies NOR to talk pages. This makes sense: Article talk pages are only for discussing improvements to articles. Inasmuch as OR is forbidden in articles, it is also out of place in article talk pages. Inasmuch as user talk pages are supposed to be Wikipedia related, OR is out of place there too.

The final warning referred to an article talk page post. The warning was posted by another user; so I am not the only one who thinks his talk page posts are unacceptable. Another user (beside myself) also left him a non-final warning about his talk page posts.

I would think nothing of it if a user posted OR once or twice on a talk page. But this particular user has posted his theories to article talk pages about 25 distinct times (not counting correctons). His edit history shows essentially nothing but posting OR. —teb728 t c 08:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The user has agreed not to post his theory except on his talk page. This resolves my concern. Except: Will someone please comment on whether this page is the appropriate forum for reporting an NOR violation after a final warning. An NOR violation is not really vandalism; so WP:AIV does not seem appropriate. —teb728 t c 09:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I am removing this page from my watchlist. If someone replies, please inform me on by user talk page. —teb728 t c 06:07, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Image without references

The Respiratory Image lacks references. There are no verifiable sources and I believe it is a synthesis which should either be sourced or deleted. In fact someone has even commented that the image has a mystake. This makes for all the more reason to delete the image, however, this was not the outcome of the image deletion request. The image can not be use on english wikipedia because it fails WP:V and WP:OR. --CyclePat (talk) 19:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I note that the image appears to be A) hosted on commons, where it was recently nominated for deletion but speedy kept due to a "Abusive DR" (deletion request) from an IP (See: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Respiratory system complete en.svg), and B) is a featured image on both the English Wikipedia and Commons. Deletion of images on commons is impossible from the English wikipedia, or any other wiki beyond commons. If the information in the image is consistent with the information in the article, and the sources provided for the article provide confirmation of the facts presented in the image, then the information is sourced. The fact that the source is not an embedded citation in the image is immaterial. I'll have a look to see if that is the case or not. Have you contacted the image's author to see if they have a source to cite? UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 19:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi user Ultraexactzz, I will address the issues you raise which are relevant. 1) You may look in my user contribution and notice that I have removed the image from a several articles. I read through those articles and could not find proper references for "parts" named/portrayed in the image. Here are articles names with a link to the changes I've made : Left Lung, to Right lung, to Respiratory desease, to bronkus, to Respiratory track, to Respiratory system. Some of these only included an image in a gallery making them as you say "consistent with the information in the article." However they did not meet the second part of your test which is "the sources provided for the article provide confirmation of the facts presented in the image...". I dissagree with your statement that an "embedded citation in the image is immaterial." and believe it's quite relevant to for this image. The artist must not only rely on something to potray this image (In that case, she could have done a autopsy or whatever), but to start naming the parts of the body requires some "authorative source". I for one would like to keep this image with some reliable sources but I can't find any. What bothers me the most is not the fact that this is a respiratory system (which most people with common knowlege can tell and would allow for the inclusion on Wikipedia) it's the fact that we are naming the body parts! I can imagine right now that somewhere, someone may call the right lung something (this is purely made up by me) like "lobelea righty". If that was or is the case, the we would have a POV issue which makes for all the more reason to have "references". 2) To answer your question, I have contacted the image's author on May 29th 2008, at their Wikimedia:commons user page. At the same time I also advised Wikipedia's Admin Notice Board. --CyclePat (talk) 00:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:NOR#Original images... we do not hold images to the same standards as text. Ideally, any image (be it a drawing, photo, or other) represents material that is stated in the article, and that material should be cited. Blueboar (talk) 20:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Blueboar. Thank you for your response. Per my above previous comment you may infer that the articles the image was used in where missing citations. In response to "holding images to the same standards as text", I would like to point out that this image has inline text. It apparently identifies the body parts with text in an authorative maner. If you may, I challenge you to try and replace within the afformentioned "changed" articles the argued image (with text) with this numbered version of the image (only numbers identifying the parts). I think it is much more convenient to have a reference with the image than to have 5 wikipedia articles (which where not even properly referenced) trying to explain one image, which should have been properly referenced in the first place! don't you? Finally, I hope you at least conceed that the numbered version may be a good replacement option? --CyclePat (talk) 00:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you actually have a reason to believe that the labels in that image might be incorrect, or are you just trying to disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point? In any case, wouldn't it have been faster and more productive to drop a simple request for a citation at the relevant WikiProject rather than to try and get the image deleted or removed from Wikipedia? Since you apparently didn't feel like doing that, I've taken the time to do it for you. Hopefully a reference will be added shortly and we can all go back to doing more useful things. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 01:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello Ilmari Karonen, Thank you for your response. As a well versed and long time contributor, since apparently 2005,[1] to Wikipedia you should be aware of Wikipedia rules and guidelines regarding references and Verification. In fact, in 2005, the WP:V was an official policy of wikipedia which states, somewhat as it still does today, that "One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher."[2] The 2005 version further make reference to the widely accepted guidelines of Wikipedia:Cite sources and Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute. B.t.w.: I noticed from your first edit on Wikipedia that you have an interest in health and nursing. Perhaps you have a text book which could be of assistance and which could verified the claimed text "labels" of this image? As I've stated on the image's talk page, I'm quite un-knowledgeable (or as most here may believe ignorant) of the subject matter. That is why, after searching for more than 20 minutes for sources, asking the original author to submit hie/her references, I have come to what I believe is the next step for assistance. I am asking you, someone knowledgeable on the subject matter, to add a proper reference. To answer your question, I actually do have reason to believe that the labels in that image are incorrect. There are no sources, someone has actually stated that there is a mistake and I can't disprove or prove that the image is correct... let alone from some authoritative source. Fast forward to 2008 and I believe my arguments still applies with the updated aforementioned Wikipedia guidelines and rules. b.t.w.: I would like to point out that we are apparently discussing my methodology of work. I appreciate the constructive criticism in exploring the relevant WikiProject "Wikipedia:WikiProject Anatomy". I would like to explain however, that I was not under the impression when I posted this request for citation/references here that this was something I should do. In fact, at the time I hope you can understand how I felt perhaps a little despaired on what and where I should do or go next. I like your recommendation and think it should be considered as a wider policy. "Perhaps something along the lines of; If you can not find proper references try contacting the original author but also try posting on a relate Wikipedia:WikiProject page asking for advice. I do concede, this may look WP:POINT but I'm sure, now that we've honestly discussed this issues, that sometimes we just honestly do not know the answer. (And we forget or don't even know where we can go to get help before going to the next step!) Best regards. --CyclePat (talk) 16:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The Hockey Theme

User:Dmgerman keeps adding original research (with his own blog as the source) to the article on The Hockey Theme. [3] [4] [5] [6]

I've reverted him three times and tried to refer him to WP:RS and WP:OR but he hasn't listened. Could someone else please come in and explain the problem to him? Reggie Perrin (talk) 00:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Other than the linking to his own blog (blogs are not reliable sources), is any of the information incorrect? If correct, I think it could be pertinent. Corpx (talk) 21:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Original Research or not

I recently removed a paragraph from Warez, which I thought was completely original research. An editor reverted the removal, commenting that "Most of these methods are well known to most people, therefore it is NOT original research". Posting here to get 3rd party opinions Corpx (talk) 21:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

On one hand, statements of fact are supposed to be sourced. "Common knowledge" is usually not a sufficient source. On the other hand, taking this too far could get ridiculous. Does the statement, "Humans need oxygen" really need to be sourced in most cases?

A good rule of thumb is, will Wikipedia be better if this rule is enforced in this case? Will its credibility really suffer if the rule is not enforced in this case? After all, the purpose of the rules is not to be "right," but to make the encyclopedia better.

Instead of immediately going to the "nuclear option" of removing someone else's work, maybe you could work with the person to find sources. Or at the very least, discuss whether the info needs sourced and give them time to find sources before deleting their hard work. Cheers, Tragic romance (talk) 21:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

When is a disambiguation page OR or POV?

In the discussion at RfD for The Queen of Bollywood, I suggested that since there were (by Google search for reliable sources, four of which I stated in the discussion) several Indian actresses and singers that were referred to by that "title" and suggested that a disambiguation page be made for the term and to retarget the redirect in question to it. Another editor did just that a few days ago: he created a dab page with about eight entries on it (per WP:MOSDAB it does not have external links, which of course the citations happen to be). Three hours later, Queen of Bollywood was improperly speedied despite not citing a single CSD category. The issue was taken to DRV, in which the editor who prompted the speedy repeated the claim that the dab page was OR, POV, and violated WP:UNDUE. Pardon me, but I cannot see how a dab page for a widely-used nickname could be any of these (I'm not too sure about the other term the "complainant" used - "fangush" - means, if anything at all). The speedy deletion was rejected by another admin; the dab page is now at AfD. Again, how can a properly formed dab page be OR, POV, or violate WP:UNDUE? 147.70.242.40 (talk) 02:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this is OR

Is this picture OR? Mlino76 designed it and uploaded it. Mlino76 is a certified PhD and has said the picture is used as a reference in scientific publications but I don't know of any so I haven't been able to verify that it has been peer reviewed. Here is the original website: [7] Mrshaba (talk) 05:04, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

FYI here is one place it appeared: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/04/solar_power_world.php Apteva (talk) 06:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

See: WP:NOR#Original images... images have a broad exemption from the NOR policy. However, there is consensus that any image must be based upon and accurately portray what is stated in the article (and that information must adhear to the NOR rules). Blueboar (talk) 11:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Genepax

This article Genepax appears to me to be mainly original research -- speculation on how the water-fueled car announced by this company works or rather doesn't work. I don't think Wikipedia is the place for people to do their own work in debunking hoaxes. SteveBaker disagrees and says that when something is fringe, original research is allowed -- but I don't see that on FRINGE. Would like some input. My comments are here. ImpIn | (t - c) 08:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Franz Liszt spiraling out of control

Besides the fact that the current article on Franz Liszt is enormous by any reasonable standard, there are some serious issues with its current reliance on primary sources as a main source of reference. The anonymous user who has expanded this page so far, has stated that it is his intention to use these sources in order to "let the reader decide" what is right or wrong, instead of using academic (or otherwise professional) authors, which he considers biased or otherwise too tendential. Besides the article's length, I'm worried that this is starting to amount to original research. It's not the job of editors to try and make sense of primary sources, and certainly shouldn't be asked of readers. An article should ideally present the prevailing expert/academic view on its subject, whether the individual editor agrees with that view or not. I think this subject urgently requires a serious discussion. Regards. --Steerpike (talk) 22:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Indigenous Oral Histories NOR or not?

Colleagues,

I'm currently looking at the possibility of establishing a comprehensive section on Indigenous Australia that will examine the diverse cultures, history, food, famous persons and location of Australia's indigenous peoples. The dominant contributors to this section would be school students from across Australia. As you may know, indigenous cultures in Australia are incredibly diverse and predominantly oral in nature--that is, much of the culture and history is handed down orally between generations within family groups.

To provide a comprehensive view of indigenous culture and history, there will be a requirement to interview family elders and to record the detail of these conversations. Will this approach contravene Wikipedia's NOR policy, and if so, is it possible to provide a waiver for this section of Wikipedia?

Kind regards,

Scot Aldred Lecturer in Education Central Queensland University Rockhampton, Queensland Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aldreds (talk • contribs) 23:24, June 19, 2008

Yes, I'm afraid any unpublished interviews you conduct would be considered OR on Wikipedia. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

article about original document

have a look at Declassified documents related to the Sino-Indian war, a clearcut case of ãn article based entirely on OR in my understanding. I'm not sure how to handle such cases; csd, prod or afd? --Soman (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

article on 'the oldest religion'

Have a quick look at the article Claims to the oldest religion. Couple of editors raised the concern of this being an OR - as no source supporting such an extended list is found. Clearly an OR or WP:SYN in OR. Wikidās ॐ 10:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Flag Carrier

The Flag carrier article has been fraught with problems since its creation. The basic problem with the article is the entire premise of what is a "Flag Carrier Airline", which the article tries to describe and list. The article was created back in 2006 and has yet to have a real source to the article's meaning. The interpretation used now is based on maritime laws (where a vessel is registered in a country and flies the flag). Besides this glaring problem, people keep arguing back and forth what basis certain airlines should appear on the list. The lists have been essentially compiled from people looking around at airlines formed in countries and interpreting if they are a carrier or not.

I would like to know what can be done at this point. My opinion is the list should be completely removed because it is incredibly misleading to people using Wikipedia as an information guide. Despite the OR tags that are on the article, people will still use the list as a source of information and it simply should not be on Wikipedia. The talk page is pretty much a reflection of the state of the article. I don't see any resolution in the immediate future (it has been 2 years without it happening so far) so I cannot understand why the information is allowed to remain on the article. Can anyone advise as to what should or can be done at this point? Rasadam (talk) 07:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This is really tricky. The US seems to have its own definition of flag carrier, "an air carrier holding a certificate under section 401 of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 (49 U.S.C.1371).". I agree that because of this it should be left out. There are lots of those, none in the article, and the definition if not unique seems unusual. The BBC has called Ryanair a flag carrier in a headline [8] which is silly (I hate headlines, they are usually written by 'headline writers' to be eye-catching and I sometimes think shouldn't be allowed as a source.). Here's a book on competition law [9] which I think is a source saying that you can be privately owned and legitimately called a 'flag carrier'. I have just read the talk page and the only way to go is to make sure every entry has a decent reference. If there are any you really think are wrong, you might try removing one and asking for a reference before it is returned, and slowly continue that way. But I'd also start at the top and try to find references for each.

Does synthesis forbid simple mathematics?

Hi. I've got a question regarding a source, and I'm bringing it here because I'm thinking of taking the article to FAC soon. Basically, the Doctor Who episode "The Stolen Earth" is the 750th episode. I don't have a source to confirm that fact directly, but I do have a source to confirm that the following episode, "Journey's End", is the 751st - specifically, the "Time Team" feature in Doctor Who Magazine says "Four fans, one mission: to watch all 751 episodes of Doctor Who", which includes "Journey's End". Am I allowed to subtract one to say TSE is the 750th, or is it original research? Sceptre ^(talk) 23:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere there was a section of policy, which I thought was in WP:NOR somewhere but appears not to be, that made explicit the fact that basic calculations are fine. If memory serves, it gave the example of converting vote counts in elections to percentages, which I do often. I can't find that passage anywhere anymore, so you'll have to take my word that it exists or existed. But as far as I'm concerned, the answer to your question is that if an RS says that The Stolen Earth is immediately before Journey's End, and if an RS says that Journey's End is episode #751, it's not a WP:SYNTH violation to say that The Stolen Earth is #750. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I've just had a scour of my DWM and RT backissues to check if the number "750" is mentioned. It's not, but "The Unicorn and the Wasp" (five episodes before) is explicitly called the 745th episode. Thanks anyway. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the Unicorn and the Wasp explicitly said to be five episodes before? If so, I think you're fine performing that amount of synthesis. Incidentally, I found the passage that I was talking about, though its status as a policy seems to be disputed: Wikipedia:Attribution#What is not original research? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a fact that The Unicorn and the Wasp is the seventh episode of the series and The Stolen Earth is the twelfth. I could cite the Radio Times for 5-11 April 2008, but I don't think that fact needs citing. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't really ever work in television articles, so your judgment about what does or doesn't need citing is probably sounder than mine. Fundamentally, though, I think you're on completely safe ground calling the episode the 750th episode. Though you did confuse me by calling it the seventh episode of the "series", before I remembered that some people are, unlike me, British. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the Atlantic, how we hate thee. Thanks anyway. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Great power

This has been an ongoing discussion and has even started a few edit wars. The disagreement is if countries that are predicted to be possible future Great Powers should have different rankings on those future predictions. My argument is against that per Wikipedia:No original research, Synthesis of published material which advances a position and Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. The discussion is located at Talk:Great power#India Dispute Resolution and some input would be appreciated. Thanks -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 09:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Need help with OR

There is a section in this article that I believe constitutes Original Research. The third paragraph, primarily, where the editor has linked to an artist's comic strip, and is now interpreting the artist's intention and assigning meaning to the title of said comics strip (even though that meaning is found nowhere in the strip itself, or elsewhere on the artist's website) and going so far as to say it's a "popular internet meme" or "common criticism", with no other sources to corroborate this "fact". Nobody has been able to come up with any valid sources that explain what the meme means (which would then add credit to its otherwise unexplained use in the comic), and without other sources it seems like speculation. I've tried to remove it, but another editor continues to revert it. I'd like to get some other opinions. It doesn't seem appropriate to just say "Oh it's 'commonly known', we don't need to source it well".--Thrindel (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Religious Myths

We have the Article Land of Israel which is just the Jewish Bible story of the Jewish g_d giving the Land of Israel (Palestine) to the Jewish People.

It is decorated by maps whomped up by enthusisiastic Zionist Wikipedians showing the free Palestinian real estate up for grabs by the Chutzpaws.

So, is Wikipedia in the business of publishing supremacist religious dogmas and racist ancestral land claims?

"The Land of Israel (Hebrew: אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, Eretz Yisrael,) is the region which, according to the Hebrew Bible"...Most notable concepts get into Wikipedia, even if they're religious in nature. And if that's the case, then I'm sorry to tell you, but the religious viewpoint is going to be dominantly portrayed. We have other articles for the more vetted historic material; you may want to wander over to those instead if you have too many personal feelings to discuss religious issues in a civil manner. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverts in topics on Ukraine

Hi, I'm bringing to your attention recent edits made in Racism and discrimination in Ukraine and in Ukrainization by Miyokan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log):

• Racism and discrimination in Ukraine - revert [10] bringing this

After Viktor Yanukovych promised to make Russian an official language of Ukraine in his 2004 presidential campaign, a group of twelve Ukrainophone writers supporting Viktor Yushchenko wrote an open letter claiming that "Yanukovych promises to give the language of low-standard pop music and thieves' cant the absurd status of a 'second official language'". [(Ukrainian) http://www.pravda.com.ua/ru/archive/2004/october/14/1.shtml][(Russian) http://news.gala.net/?id=168242] Later, one of the writers explained that the phrase "the language of low-standard pop music and thieves' cant" does not refer to Russian language, but rather to the slang spoken by "a certain political force". He also pointed out that they were trying to defend the rights of Russian-speaking people in Ukraine to have a "true Russian culture"[(Ukrainian) http://www.bezcenzury.com.ua/ua/archive/9775/society/9828.html]. However, Yanukovych never mentioned any intentions to give official status to thieves' cant, so the clarification does not explain the initial statement. Viktor Yushchenko expressed his gratitude for the support and respect to the group of writers. [(Ukrainian) http://www.yuschenko.com.ua/ukr/present/News/1338/]

back into the "Language discrimination" section and removing source request. No word about racism or discrimination in given sources. The revert was commented as "Please look up the definition of racism and discrimination".

• Ukrainization - edit [11] bringing "the government ... began ... Ukrainization, ..., while systematically discouraging Russian, which has been banned in various aspects of life, from ... to ..." - no sources given for "systematically" and "various aspects of life". Revert of source requests [12] with "rv tendentious editor;discouraging Russian is evidenced by the banning of Russian in various aspects, as they sources show; education-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Meeting_near_Russian_school.jpg" comment. Revert [13] of consensus version [14] available in Ukraine#Language adding "systematically" and "in various aspects of life" back to the article without sources provided with "Stick to what the sources say" comment.

Can some 3rd party please comment how does it corresponds to WP:NOT and WP:OR. --windyhead (talk) 10:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Girija Prasad Koirala

Hailbihar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) keeps claiming posting a section called "Nepal Royal Massacre Allegation" on the page of Girija Prasad Koirala, several users including myself have attempted to undo this operation however he keeps putting it back up claiming he is well within his rights as he has posted a link. All the links he entries written by the same author on his views about the royal massacre incident in Nepal. I believe that this is a violation of the no original research policy of Wikipedia. Any help regarding this issue is appreciated. Sharmaru (talk) 02:36, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

It's actually a BLP violation due to the inadequacy of the sources (reliable sources guideline). Although in spirit, that is much the same as an OR violation, so you're not too far off ;-) Anyway, I've reverted and left him a stern warning on his talk page. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:47, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Open Office XML

I have a question. Is this statement completely original research.

Office Open XML conforms to all four charactericstic of the European Union's definition of an open standard.^[1] It is a standard created by non-profit standards organization ^[2] Ecma International which is publishing ^[3] the Office Open XML specification for free ^[4] and without copyright restrictions allowing reuse of the standard^[5][6]and possible patents are made irrevocably available on a royalty-free basis through the Open Specification Promise.

The claim is that Office Open XML conforms, but the reference leads not to a reference that says it conforms, but to the guidelines of the European Union's definition of an open standard. This is imho original research because it calls for a conclusion not referenced by a 3rd party. In fact the whole section is full of original research as the references do not lead to articles that say that the Office Open XML standard complies with any of the claims, but to the guidelines for the claims. AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is a classic bait-and-switch form of false references, which may or may not be done in good faith. And you are correct, third-party sources are generally needed to make the connection. There is the rare exception when the logical deduction really is as simple as 2+2, and that's something that requires discussion, consensus, and dispute resolution as necessary in order to decide. If that's the case, however, the false references should still be removed, and leave merely the link to the other Wikipedia article so that readers can follow it and see just how unneeding of a reference the statement is. Whether that's the case here, I won't judge. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Someguy1221, I was sure that tthe reference wasnt enough. The deduction is not that simple, its a complex list. In fact the reference isnt even to a page that lists it, but to a page that you can download a pdf that lists some of the criteria in a pamphlet form. AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)