Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view

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FAQ pseudoscience discussion reopened

Moved discussion to Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/FAQ#FAQ pseudoscience discussion reopened

WP:ASF question

I can look at this section as well as the other two sections WP:MORALIZE and WP:SUBSTANTIATE and determine on my own that opinions should not be added and that facts should speak for themselves. Yet it has been argued, by some editors, on other talk pages that an opinion is OK if experts agree, and if experts agree on an opinion, then it is fact. I cited the example that Murder is bad, hoping that the other editor would see the reasoning, but I was told I was comparing apples to oranges. My question is:

1. Can we add more examples to the section so that we can have a broader base to make a point. or...

2. Should we add that widley held, or even undisputed opinions should still not be added, and only the facts should be added?

The way it reads now is still just a bit ambiguous and can still be interpreted incorrectly. Perhaps I am still wrong but hopefully someone will comment soon.--Jojhutton (talk) 15:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

no, what you're saying makes a certain amount of sense. let me try a quick revision. --Ludwigs2 18:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Ludwigs, changes of core policy based on two-people's discussions is not appropriate. ^{Talk• Contributions} 19:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. That seems pretty obvious to me. Doug Weller (talk) 20:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

This is great, and makes things clearer. Does not change the meaning, but it does make things clearer and it is well written. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 19:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's poorly written, but that's not the point. We do not make massive changes to core policy without significant discussion. There are additions that are just not necessary or very wordy. ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Orangemarlin,

1. please adjust your twinkle config so that it does not mark your reversions as minor. If you don't know how, please ask, I'm happy to assist.
2. please stop reverting edits simply because I was the one who made them; your personal animosity towards me is not sufficient grounds for this kind of behavior. If you had bothered to read the edit I made (which you clearly didn't), you'd have seen that it was mostly copy-editing and clarification; there is nothing there that is particularly problematic.

that being said, if you have specific objections to the edit, please state them here so we can discuss them. otherwise, I will wait a bit and then reinstate the changes for others to review. thanks.

--Ludwigs2 22:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks. Thank you. ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:10, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. Make no further comments about my use of Twinkle. I consider it a personal attack, since not a single other editor has ever mentioned it. ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I would have reverted the changes even had OM made them. No discussion and significant changes? I think not. ^dissera! 20:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, discussion comes first, changes second, and only if those changes reach consensus. Nota bene: a two person discussion does not count in reaching consensus. ^dissera! 20:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Jim: if you can point out where it actually changed any meanings, please do so. I meant this edit to be helpful, not problematic. and please don't suggest that I can't be wp:bold when it comes to what I view as minor revisions. I don't object to the disagreement or the revert, mind you, just the hostility behind it. however, since the topic is opened, let's discuss it now so that we can work out the kinks.

OM: asking you not to mark your reverts as minor constitutes a personal attack? dude, please... --Ludwigs2 20:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Guys... there's no need to descend into taking swipes at each other. I commend WP:BRD as a good read. Discussion doesn't always HAVE to come first. Ludwigs made a change. He thought it would stand. (thats the Bold in BRD) But it got reverted. (that's the Revert in BRD) So now... discuss the change and work out what would have consensus. L: Don't take offense that you got reverted (and spare us the "my personal ________" comments). OM: Don't take offense that L asked you to change your Twinkle settings. Both of you and everyone else, get back to the substance here, would be my advice. Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 22:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Lar - I'm not taking any offense at the revert, and I'll delete that line (because you're right, it was unnecessary). on to the discussion... --Ludwigs2 22:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I did not expect so much discussion so soon. I thank everyone who has commented on my suggestions. I truely believe that all comments are valid and that we as editors can come to a middle ground.

As it stands now, and I just skimmed the comments, but it seems that the only problem with the edit was that it was mmade with little discussion, but not with the wording. Am I wrong in that determination? If not then does anyone have a problem with perhaps adding a few more examples to it or with clarifying the section so that it can in no way be misinterpreted. My argument is that some editors like to Wikilawer to death on other talk pages about the meaning of every single word and phrase, myself included. I just wanted to make the section a bit less ambiguous, so as to cut down the number of uncivil discusions on other talk pages. Thanks again and happy editing--Jojhutton (talk) 23:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

A pair of comparisons for change of meaning

Since Ludwig was asking for examples where his new wording] changed the meaning (emphasis added):

Old: Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.

New: Plato was a philosopher, are facts, because no one offers any serious, meaningful arguments to the contrary.

Hum, this new wording opens the word to some POV pusher saying "But I have here (link to biased page) serious arguments to the contrary" and "you can't assert until you can show that arguments on the contrary are not serious".

Old: However, there are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included.<ref name="see_also_uw" />

New: because different people can and do make meaningful arguments that it was right or that it was wrong.

New (on 3rd paragraph): There are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular statement represents a fact or a value judgement/opinion

Ok, this is plainly removing the part saying that borderline statements should not be included. This looks uncomfortably like the same old dispute about leaving WP:FRINGE theories stuff out of articles, where Ludwig is partidary of including them. I think that Ludwig does not notice that he is unconsciously introducing his own bias, no offence intended :) --Enric Naval (talk) 01:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

(I continue) The part on the Beatles looks okay to me, and the wording is clearer on the old version. That part doesn't change meaning except to say that the forbidden statement "X was the best ever" can now be sourced like "[authoritative source] says that X was the best ever"

The added explanation of what 'mass attribution' means is quite good.

The rest of the last changed paragraph, however, has a huge problem. The example of "God exists" is not about an actual fact (unless you can prove that God exist, of course). You see what I mean, I'll just make the same sentence that Ludwig did, but with a different topic:

Example: "Nature journal has made a statement that Water memory/Homeopathy is pseudoscience, but this should be clearly attributed as the opinion of Nature, and not (despite its wide acceptance) as a statement of fact"

As it happens all the time on articles that have some pseudoscientific/fringe POVs, the capability of scientific authoritative sources to state scientific facts is put in doubt. As I say above, this appears to be unconscious bias (sorry, Ludwigs)

So, some parts of the text are rescuable (hell, maybe I'll try to add them myself other day :P) --Enric Naval (talk) 01:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Eric, first, no offense taken on the suggestion that I might be introducing my own bias. Undoubtably I do, as do we all, and that's why I rely on people like you to reel it back in. with that in mind, I have to say that your last is an excellent point, and something I hasn't considered. I don't think I'd support that wording myself now that you've pointed it out. I was really only trying to clarify that in some cases the 'Everybody knows...' type arguments are supported by an appeal to authority which gives them an extra aura of 'truthiness'; I hadn't meant it to apply to actual authoritative sources like scientific journals. that bit will definitely have to be excluded or reworked.

interestingly, the 'serious, meaningful' wording occurred to me because I had the exact same worry that you do (that someone would point to a biased source and say it is a 'serious dispute' about Plato being a philosopher). that, and I was trying to create some consistency between paragraphs, which use different terminology here and there. the problem, I think, lies in words like 'serious' which are unfortunately subjective: how do we exclude sources which are (in their own mind) quite serious, but create disputes that are patently ridiculous? would it help to replace 'serious/meaningful' with something like 'credible'?

also, you're correct: dropping the 'and included' was a pure, unadulterated mistake on my part. apologies... --Ludwigs2 03:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we can incorporate various parts of each of these arguments. My original suggestion was to perhaps include a few more examples. I don't think that these would hurt or change the meaning of the section one bit, and it will most likely improve it and make it more clear. The other suggestion I had was to perhaps add the phrase "Do not add opinions, even widely held opinions...." My intention with these additions is to help alleviate possible edit wars and heated discussions. I had no way of knowing that this would turn into a heated discussion in its own right, but this is wikipedia after all.

Ludwigs edit was a tad wordy and I don't think the section really needed as much change as all of that. I do side with him in the fact that it does need to be changed to make it less ambiguous. Thank you both for bringing great ideas to the table. Enric, I commend your ability to compromise. Many editors are stubborn, including myself, and stick to their guns, so to speak. You are making a concious effort to improve this policy. Ludwig, thanks for seeing that there was a problem and trying to do something about it. Wikipedia needs good Bold editors who are not afraid to clarify policy. We sometimes forget that there is no central wikipedia God that controls all policy. It is the community that decides and nothing more and nothing less. Thnnk You all and Happy Editing.--Jojhutton (talk) 04:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

<ri> Thanks for reviewing the proposed changes, Enric. At first glance the Beatles paragraph looks reasonable, the mass attribution issue needs more careful consideration. Look forward to seeing proposals for any changes, with due care to avoid unintended consequences. . . dave souza, talk 08:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Enric, NOR already does what you say- any POV pusher can ask for a source on something. You're talking about attribution here. Attributing something to Nature strengthens the claim. If some POV pusher insists on attribution, if the source is good the original claim is made stronger. If the source is not good, then it is rightly put in question in the mind of the reader. In either case, no harm has been done. WP has no business stating controversial things as fact in a context where that is disputed much as some editors want to. Example: See? In the article on Plato, there is no dispute. In an article on the Plato myth, you attribute. So it's a matter of context, as with so much else. A "serious controversy" is relative.

On Wikipedia, a "fact" is taken to mean "information about which there is no meaningful dispute in the article context." For example, in an article on the Earth it may be stated as fact that the earth is round, but in the section of that article which mentions Flat earth belief, a statement that "the earth is really round" must be attributed. Likewise, statements that a planet called Mars exists, or that Plato was a philosopher may be stated as facts in articles on those subjects. But in articles disputing the existence of Mars or denying that Plato existed, editors must source their claims.

Or something like that. Everyone here knows that we don't go into articles which deny the obvious and, after stating the position taken by the deniers of the obvious, blandly state the obvious as fact. Look at the Flat earth article. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, come now, everyone has seen attribution abused: E.g. "According to Fred Smith, the world is round." Attribution is really easy to abuse, simply by providing no reason why the person should be trusted and making it appear that widely-held views are only held by one person. Put that in opposition to "According to the The International Society of Geoplanar Science, the earth is flat" [membership: 2], and it gets even worse. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Beatles example

I went ahead and used Ludwig's wording [1], as people here seem to like it and it doesn't change meaning. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Mass attribution example

Just after the "mass attribution" words (right next to reference [3]), add Ludwig's explanation as a footnote:

{{note|mass|Mass attribution happens when a particular statement is applied as though it were true of a broad range of people. Statements of this sort may be prefaced by explicit qualifiers like 'everyone knows...' or 'all Ecuadorians support...' or it may merely be an implicit assumption in the text, but in either case such statements should not be included unless they can be traced back to reliable sources that demonstrate their truth. In some cases mass attribution may make an appeal to authority.}}

(using {{ref}}/{{note}} syntax to avoid cluttering the source code). As an alternative, it could be added to either Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words or Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms and linked directly. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I could support either the footnote version or adding it to the other guidelines (I have a mild preference for the footnote, because I'm not sure mass attribution fits entirely correctly under either of those other pages, but...). I would suggest a clarification though, namely: "In some cases mass attribution may make an appeal to authority, by using statements from noteworthy groups or individuals as though they were 'spokespeople' for larger groups." would that change the meaning of the phrase in an unacceptable way? I'm just trying to clarify how the appeal to authority works. --Ludwigs2 19:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I object to this. In practice it's generally used to suppress the majority view, by insisting it be attributed to single individuals. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If all you have is a single individual who is not writing in an authoritative source, then what you have is a sourcing problem, not a proble with the attribution policy. If someone is writing in the NYT, then you attribute thus "X, writing in the NYT said..." In this case, the attribution strengthens the statement. If you just have "X, writing in his own website," well, that doesn't strengthen it. That's a problem with the source. It is corrected by getting better sources. The same thing applies here as with any unsourced material: if you can't get a good source, you just can't write it in WP. Saying "well, it wasn't accepted in a journal because people don't like my ideas," or saying "the majority doesn't care about it but this is what they'd say if they were to speak" doesn't work here. The reason for attribution is to let the reader decide, and if the source just isn't any good, it isn't the place of WP to promote it by not giving proper attribution. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. my worry (which I see happen here and there in wikipedia) is that a purported majority view (i.e., a view which common sense says ought to be a majority, but which can't be demonstrated as a majority view in reliable sources), gets in through the back door by finding some notable, authoritative individual who just happens to have stated that common-sense view. basically it's taking 'everybody knows this' and supporting it by pointing out that Joe Famous said it, as though Joe Famous saying it somehow shows that everyone knows it. exempla gratia: say an editor wants to make an edit to the effect that 'marriage can only be between a man and a woman' (I voted today, had to shoot this one down at the polls - lol). first he'll say 'everyone knows that marriage is between a man and a woman', and if anyone objects, he'll say 'every major religions says that...'. this is using the authority of religions and religious doctrine as though religions spoke for all their adherents. really, it's the ecological fallacy using loose estimation rather than clear statistics, piling bad logic on bad logic. --Ludwigs2 04:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Article structure

davidz has kindly pointed out to me that I removed some long-standing material on article structure from Words to avoid. This material doesn't have anything to do with "words to avoid" and overlaps considerably with the article structure section here. In my view this material is fundamental to our NPOV policy, and we need to settle on what it says here, rather than farm it out to a style guideline. I've made an attempt to merge it in here. I realise that the issue of (for example) criticism sections has been a matter of debate, and I have done my best not to imply a point of view, but to reflect a consensus position. However, editors with more experience editing this policy will undoubtedly be able to do better. Geometry guy 12:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Medical degree

• Medical degree (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - The editor User:Naturstud is a Naturopath from Canada who has been editing a lot of medically related pages to include information about naturopathy. I have no problem with this in general and is fine. However, he has been a tendentious editor and has been including a lot of misleading information in the article Medical degree suggesting that those who hold a degree in "naturopathy or naturopathic medicine" (a degree he himself holds) are equivalent to "medical doctors" and that he feels the naturopathy degree that he holds should be classified and listed as a "medical degree" along side the MD, DO, and MBBS degrees. The World Health Organization WHO/IMED disagrees and they have created an internationally recognized list of what is and is not considered a "medical degree". This list published by the WHO is utilized by the "board of medicine" in pretty much every country in the world. They use this list as a guide to decide who holds a recognized "medical degree" and who is eligible and who is not eligible for a "medical license". Naturopathy is not on this list. Naturopathic medicine is classified as a "complementary and alternative medical practice" along side Chinese medicine, homeopathic medicine, reiki, ayurveda, acupuncture, etc. Naturstud refuses to list his degree along side these other professions even though they are always grouped together, he instead insists on classifying his degree as a "medical degree" even though it is not recognized as such. Naturopaths are allowed to register with the state "board of Naturopathic Medicine" (in those few regions which regulate the profession. However, this is completely different from the state "board of Medicine". This is similar to a dentist (another type of "health care professional") who also holds a license through the state "board of dental medicine"; this however does not mean that a dentist holds a "medical license" to "practice medicine" from a state "board of medicine". They hold a "dental license" just like a naturopath is (in a few regions) allowed to hold a "naturopathic license". Only graduates with "medical degrees" from one of the the WHO/IMED listed world medical schools who have obtained a certificate from the ECFMG[2] are allowed to apply for a "medical license".

Myself and a few other editors have agreed to allow Naturstud to edit the article Medical degree to include his degree with the only exception that he also equally include ALL other "complementary and alternative medicine" professional degrees, diplomas, and certificates equally as per Wiki (NPOV) policy. He refuses and has continued to push and promote his profession on wikipedia at the expense of others.

Could we please have some assistance cleaning up or rewriting this article to better comply with NPOV policy?

• I feel we should either:
  • 1) Re-write the guidelines to include ONLY "medical degree"s as is "internationally recognized" for the "practice of medicine" as per the internationally accepted WHO Directory of Medical Schools/FAIMER International Medical Education Directory ^[1]. As only graduates of medical schools in these lists are permitted to apply for medical licensure.^[2] or
  • 2) the only alternative being to include a list of ALL alternative and complementary medical practitioners in order to keep this list fair and balanced (WP:NPOV). We can either maintain the article title of Medical degree or an alternate suggestion was changing the title of the article to Healthcare degrees in order to better suit an all inclusive list.

Thank you for your help. Jwri7474 (talk) 04:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You really want WP:NPOV/N or WP:FTN ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll repost there then. Jwri7474 (talk) 04:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

"main article" change to "see"

I suggest that we change "main article" to "see" or "see also" or "see guideline" or something similar, as "main article" can be read to imply that the guideline in the section top note has precedence over the text in the section. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not think this change should apply to "Main article: Wikipedia:Naming conventions" in the "Article naming" section as that is to a policy and not a guideline. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Halloween WP:Update

A reminder: WP:Update has monthly updates of the 7 content policy pages. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 20:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

How do I report a Wiki member?

Hello, A Wiki member has been thinking that I have been vandalizing a page but I haven't.

The Wikipedia page is the Sonic Unleashed section.

The user is SLJCOAAATR 1 and his / her posts are saved in the discussion topic.

He / she insulted me in the section and that user did not understand what I was talking about and they thought that I vandalized.

The main problem was only that the Night of the Werehog video was said in the article that it would be a full length animated 3D Movie 3D but that was incorrect. I changed it to a Short 3D Animated film because those sources were confirmed.

However the user SLJCOAAATR 1 thought that I was already posting the same video and information twice (because it was posted already, and I wasn't even actually trying to post the video again. The video was on the site but I was actually trying to show them the information). SLJCOAAATR 1 didn't listen.

SLJCOAAATR 1 then deleted my other post after I replied and insulted me yet again in a user talk page comment because I got irritated with that user because SLJCOAAATR 1 wasn't listening to me.

I hope this is the right place for these kind of things! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mamaluigibob (talk • contribs) 20:47, 2 November 2008 (UTC)