Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria

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Not policy

I'm confused. This page wasn't marked as policy in September (that I recall); I have looked at the history for October and can't see where Category:Wikipedia content policy was added; the page now shows that cat at the bottom and the cat can't be removed using HotCat. Anyway. There's no editable policy on this page; the policy material is transcluded from WP:NFCC. Can someone figure out how to remove the policy cat? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe the NFCC transclusion is bringing in the policy cat, nothing otherwise specifically on this page. Don't think there's a way to avoid that (can't use noinclude as its not a template). --M 14:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep, my bad. I just added <noinclude></noinclude> over there; it seems to be working. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 14:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

modified non-free content

If a logo is licensed under a nearly free license (that is, it just requires that it is used only in connection to a specific topic), and there is a modified version (modification under cc), does criterion #4 apply also for the modified version, or is it sufficient if the original non-free version is published outside WP? Thanks —Quilbert (talk) 14:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If the modified version has never been published outside Wikipedia, why is it thought to serve an encyclopedic purpose here? Yes, there does appear to be a criterion 4 concern.DocKino (talk) 17:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It is simply a differently coloured svg version of a non-free logo (which permits modification). But maybe the site will publish the svg version, too. —Quilbert (talk) 17:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Per derivative licenses, the original license is the license that applies. β^_command 01:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Specific question about Danity Kane article

I removed two images from Danity Kane on the basis that I believed both images failed to follow guidelines, specifically that they were album covers in being used in a discography section. The editor that uploaded those images disagrees. We have agreed to discuss it here (or, if there's a better place to discuss whether a particular image usage is OK, I'll move this there.—Kww(talk) 18:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your actions and have tagged a few more images that fail WP:NFCC. β^_command 18:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The use of the album covers did not occur in what is generally considered a discography section, but in a detailed discussion of their recording career. It would be appropriate to use one album cover to illustrate how the group was marketed and how its image was developed. To support such usage, we would want to see some sourced discussion of the band's visual image—the cover that better illustrates that discussion could be included.—DCGeist (talk) 19:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I did not upload those images. And as I stated on Kww's talk page:

"If album covers can only be used in articles about the albums, then why would Wikipedia have these options when you upload an album cover?

Options:

• in an infobox about the album/single.
• in a header at the top of the article about the album/single.
• in a section devoted to the album/single.
• in an article about the album/single's artist, used to identify the artist's work.
• for some other use.

You see? I was going for option #3. Although I was not for both album covers being within the article. A different editor had recently added the second album cover. But having the first album cover...I feel is an enhancement to the article's readability, seeing as it is their debut album. Plus, it is in the section about the album.

Besides that, I provided a fair-use rationale for that second use to go along with the fair use rationale for its first use."

Thus, my use of the one image (I did not put the other image in the article) is exactly what DCGeist states above and is correct. I will now restore that image. Flyer22 (talk) 04:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Use of historical logos in logo gallery

This has been a recurring discussion at WikiProject Television Stations, which resulted in a question being put to Mike Godwin, legal counsel for Wikipedia. He does not find an issue with the use of historical logos in a gallery, so please keep that in mind before removing images. See link to discussion with Godwin's response. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I also couldn't imagine that there would be a legal issue with that, but our restrictions on nonfree content is far more strict than "what the law will allow". I wouldn't see how such galleries would generally be essential enough to the article to allow such extensive use, use must be minimal. I could see making an exception for individual logos if the logo itself were sourceably iconic and had in its time been extensively discussed by reliable sources, but other than that I see no need for a massive nonfree gallery. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:13, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Generally, you won't get "massive" galleries. Stations don't change branding and logos that often. There is also a requirement in the project page that there must be a noticeable difference between logos. In one case, someone included a new logo that was identical to the old, except it was shinier. I opposed that. Still, not everyone agrees with your point of view and criteria for inclusion, and so far, no consensus has been reached, nor has any criterion been objectively quantified. I would encourage discussion before removal as a show of good faith. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, as to the inclusion criteria, they aren't mine. The requirement that we must use nonfree images minimally comes from the Foundation, and we have only narrow exemptions to that. "We'll use it as far as the law allows" is maximal use and disallowed, since obviously one would not argue that we should use nonfree images in violation of the law, "as much as the law will allow" is the maximum possible. That's not minimal use. Minimal use is "Is it critical and indispensable to explaining this article's subject?" Generally, a logo (especially one no longer in use) would fail this test. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The "critical and indispensable" test does not appear on WP:NFCC, WP:NFC, or WP:Logos, so yes, the criteria are yours, and not the Foundation's. All uses of logos are expected to follow policy and guidelines; you are also expected to respect the same and not apply your own private interpretations. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 23:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Please note that WP:NFCC#8 clearly covers the "critical and indispensable" part. simple question for determining whether or not you need an image is: does the removal/exclusion of this image prevent understanding of the topic? or is it just a minor increase to the overall information in the subject. One good example, a picture of Homer Simpson would be needed to properly cover The Simpsons. But a picture of the elephant Stampy image here is not needed for obvious reasons. β^_command 00:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

(continued from comment above)

Apples and oranges, my friend. The purpose of the logos is to convey the history of the brand. One logo cannot do that, so multiple images are essential for its purpose. History is one of the stated elements of a good television station article, so if available, history of the brand is germane. It is also a topic of keen interest to the subset of readers who are likely to be consumers of television station articles, as evidenced by this Radio-Info.com thread. I must also say that we wholeheartedly disagree on your interpretation of NFCC#8. Significantly increasing understanding is not the same as "critical and indispensable". dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 00:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

wrong Non-free content is non-free content how ever you want to phrase it. Please note that this policy is not the fair use policy. Its the Non-Free Content Policy. they are not the same so quit attempting to make them. The wikimedia stance on non-free content is pretty solid. they say use as little as possible. If something is critical to the understanding of the topic it is significant. Godwin may be legal counsel and I respect him for that, but his comments are by no definition binding and policy creating. If there is an issue the board will address it or mike will take care of any particular incident that crops up, but that does not mean that he sets policy. β^_command 01:00, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Hang on there a second. If something is critical to understanding, it is significant, that is true. But what is significant is not necessarily critical. They are not the same, and critical is not the standard: significant is. The Wikimedia stance is solid - "significance" is the standard per WP:NFCC and it is not violated. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

It is my understanding, after reading this from Mike Godwin, that galleries of logos are fine. If they are fine in the legal counsel of Wikimedia's eyes, then what is the all the hubbub about? - • • November 2, 2008 @ 01:30

/facepalm yet again people check the name of this policy, Mike made a statement about something qualifying as fair use, that does not mean it falls within the non-free content policy. this wikia character bio falls within fair use, but under the guidelines and policies set forth by the foundation it is against policy. please stop confusing fair use usage with non-free content usage. they are not the same. the usage of non-free content is far far more strict than is required under United States Fair Usage law.β^_command 01:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but "far far more strict" is not the language used in WP:NFC. That's your own creation. The logos I refer to meet that guideline's standards for acceptable use, specifically Images criteria #2 and #8. The main logo in the infobox meets criterion #2, as it is used for identification, while the project page guideline on historical logos requires commentary for compliance with criterion #8. By their very definition, the historical logos carry historical significance. You are trying to enforce an unreasonable standard not found in the guideline. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Beta, you are trying to say something is non-fair when it is fair-use. Mike said that logos are "fair-use"...fair-use = not non-fair use. Makes sense to me. Even User:A Man In Black conceded he went over the line when enforcing this rule after what Mike said. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 02:46

No comment on the logo's itself. But for the rest, "for more strict" might not be in the policy, but "within purposely stricter standards" is in the policy. Please remember that non-free content (on Wikipedia) is not the same as the legal term fair use. Garion96 (talk) 02:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

/facepalm again You need to forget fair use. the rules of fair use are a lot looser than that of non-free content. As I have stated fair use != non-free content. the standards to use media under FU are very loose. to use non-free content under wikimedia policy it must meet fair use, and then a lot more. a general rule of NFC is that its not allowed in galleries. if you can provide non-trivial sourced content to go along with the images I have no problem with them as part of a sourced well written content, so that it meets WP:NFCC galleries of NFC are not allowed regardless of the reason. β^_command 02:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually I don't....because Mike said that galleries are fair use. You are trying to apply rules to something where Mike (legal dude with lawyer degree) said they don't belong. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 03:07

simple question for you, is non-free content the same thing as fair use? β^_command 03:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think galleries are non-free (since that's what Mike said). Whether non-free content and fair use are the same....I will be the first one to tell ya, I haven't the slightest clue. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 03:28

Let me make a few points and then attempt to draw some sort of conclusion:

• I agree that Godwin's words shouldn't be mistaken for God's words.
• I agree that "critical and indispensable" is an exaggerated interpretation of NFCC8.
• Note that in the policy, the phrase "minimal usage" refers specifically to the principle that "Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information". That's a very important aspect of the policy but it should be interpreted in that specific context. With all due respect, I think Seraphimblade's point about "maximal usage" vs "minimal usage" is an over-interpretation of that phrase.
• I believe that there are fairly few instances where one could argue that a gallery of previous logos has much significance. Nevertheless, I don't think they should be banned per se. If the article in fact discusses the branding, then logos are significant. A company's logo may change after a change of ownership, an important change in the company's focus, objectives or when a company decides to dramatically expand its market. In such instances, the old vs new logo may be significant.

Ok so what do I conclude from all this? As much as we'd love to have clear-cut answers to questions such as "are logo galleries OK?", the fact is that these things need to be decided on a case-by-case basis. The best answer I'd come up with is "logo galleries are a priori not OK, but...". As Seraphimblade points out, some logos are iconic. But in most cases, old logos are just old logos and including them is just a cheap way to make an article look prettier. In the end, it's the editor's responsibility to justify the use of a specific logo gallery. Because logos are such a diverse bunch of things, the current policies simply don't provide a definitive all-encompassing principle on their use and any attempt at a centralized discussion will turn into an abstract screaming match. But when looking at a specific instance, both sides can have meaningful discussions about things like "significance", "importance", "iconic" and "minimal usage". Pascal.Tesson (talk) 03:14, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Question for everyone.....why when Mike says "use of historical logos in this way strikes me as fair use" are we trying to argue that galleries are "Non-free content"? - • • November 2, 2008 @ 03:31

your comment above sheds a lot of light on your current understanding of media policy. fair use is a legal defense that is used when someone needs/wants to display copyrighted works for educational/explanation purposes. the rules around fair use are fairly liberal in what can be used under those policies. IE the link that I provided above to wikia. Since wikipedia is run by the wikimedia foundation, and the goal of the foundation is to provide free content to all, they decided that they wanted to limit the usage of fair use media even more. so what would pass as fair use may or may not pass the requirement set by the foundation. the policy that the foundation has limits the usage of copyrighted material far more than that of the fair use laws. so the stricter policy that was created by the foundation is called our non-free content policy. images must not only pass the requirements for fair use, they must also pass the requirements of non-free content to be used on en.wikipedia. other languages such as the German wikipedia do not allow any non-free content. their policy is stricter than that of en wiki's. I hope this explanation helps some. β^_command 03:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

They are non-free content by virtue of the fact that they are copyrighted. Logos are presumed non-free unless it can be shown that the copyright period has expired, at which time they become public domain. Only non-free content needs to meet the "fair use" test. The "fair use" doctrine is the only reason we can even use copyrighted images on Wikipedia. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Non-free and Fair-use makes my head hurt. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 03:36

You are certainly not the first there. I'm probably better versed than most as that goes and it makes mine spin sometimes too. So let's have a go at making the distinction, and maybe that will help get everyone in the discussion on the same page.

Fair use is a doctrine of US copyright law. It is an affirmative defense against a charge of copyright infringement, with the idea that copyrighted works should be usable in certain cases without the copyright holder's permission, such as to criticize the work. In essence, fair use legitimizes certain uses of copyrighted content that would otherwise be considered copyright infringement.

On the other hand, "non-free content" is not a legal term. It comes largely from the idea of free content. The idea of free content is that anyone can use the content for any purpose, including commercial use, redistribution, and/or modification, without having to ask permission of the author. (Sometimes attribution of the author and/or keeping the work and its derivatives under the same license are required, these conditions can be present in a free license.) Our primary goal is to be a free content project, meaning that, to the maximum extent possible, all content we have should be freely licensed. We make exceptions to that only in narrow, limited cases, and we do not allow non-free content even in many cases where it would be legally acceptable as fair use.

Finally, as to the standards on them, especially #8. Pascal may think the "critical and indispensable" test is an overstatement, but I must disagree—if we are using nonfree images when they are dispensable and not critical, we are not following minimal use, because we could reduce use without cutting critical, indispensable parts. It really follows from the definition of "minimal"—the minimum possible. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the comments made here. The discussion was first brought up on WT:TVS, where users were trying to claim that logo galleries violate fair use. That was put to rest by the statement from Mike Godwin. Yes, Godwin's words are not God's, but since the Almighty hasn't seen fit to comment on fair use, Godwin, as Wikipedia General Counsel, is as authoritative as we have on matters of the legality of the issue. The logo galleries meet the test of legality under fair use. That was the reason I started this thread.

Now, Seraphimblade brings up a relevant, but entirely separate, issue: are the images compliant with Wikipedia policy and guidelines? My contention is, yes they are. The logo galleries, if created in accordance with the guidelines on the Television Stations Project Page, are fully compliant with Wikipedia policy and guideline in both letter and spirit. For the sake of full disclosure, I wrote the TVS project guideline just today, in response to the same user who requested that I put this entry in the NFCC page. Commentary on each logo is critical to compliance with NFC guidelines; logo galleries with no commentary are, as eloquently put by Pascal.Tesson, "just a cheap way to make an article look prettier". Such galleries do not comply with policy — however, I ask again, as a show of good faith, rather than deleting them, please add the necessary commentary, or put a note on the project talk page so that someone from the project can bring it into compliance. At the same time, I insist that you apply the standards as they are written, not as you imagine them to be. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Please note a one liner is not enough commentary about a logo for inclusion. If an article has the text and commentary to support multiple logos I will gladly defend the usage. But for 95+% that commentary is not there. Please note that WP:NFC clearly states galleries fail NFCC most of the time. the usage of the second logo on KVIQ clearly fails the requirements for inclusion. β^_command 04:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

We have found common ground. I also agree that KVIQ needs improvement, but frankly, to portray brand evolution effectively, the article should have more logos. I have my own ideas about what needs to be done, but other than deleting the logo, what would you do to make it compliant?

I ask that people please allow time to bring the galleries into full compliance. Personally, I don't care for the logo galleries, but I believe that they serve a purpose in documenting the evolution of the station's brand, which cannot be done without the use of multiple images, and with the presumption of logos as non-free, then they cannot be done without the use of multiple non-free images. That is why I contend that when properly commented, these galleries meet the requirements of NFCC #8. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:22, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Once you add enough commentary they no longer become galleries. as for that example, I see two options, either add content that is sourced and well written, (something I cannot do as I dont happen to know that subject) or remove the image until such time as content exists to support images. β^_command 04:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

How does adding "commentary" make it not a gallery? That confuses me. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 04:29

Once again, you're adding language that is not in the policy or guidelines. Nowhere does it state that the commentary must be sourced, nor does Wikipedia state that any prose need to be sourced. If that were true, you could nail almost every article on every topic for having non-sourced commentary. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually Im not. anything on wikipedia that is not considered "common knowledge" should be sourced. It is also a good thing to see content sourced. as for you example of that gallery, I happened to have lived in that area, I dont see how those particular logos significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic I also think it violates WP:NFCC#3. β^_command 04:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

As a point of reference, the logo gallery in WJW-TV is more what I had in mind as a "compliant" gallery. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I think something more like this would be better. Gives commentary, but doesn't take up 5 or 6 lines. I personally don't like the way the gallery is setup currently on the WJW page. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 04:35

I am tend to incline that this is a similar case as the recent Dr Who companions image that was up at IFC on Oct 23 that closed as deleted (which was an imagemap of 38 distinict non-free image uses); the major arguments for keeping sound very much like the reasoning to keep here, though unlike the companions, each old logo doesn't have a repeated use on WP. The questions boils down to, how helpful is the old logos to the reader? If there is something more to say about the logo ("This was the first logo drawn by now-famous artist X" or "This logo was short-lived due to complaints from viewers over its phallic nature") that is verifiable, then there's something worth keeping. But, if it's just there to show visual changes in the logo, it is pretty much a decoration and should be deleted. --M 05:18, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

It is very helpful. Try discribing an old logo to someone and not show them a picture. Hard isn't it? Having a gallery of logos (and I am talking television station logos) shows the reader that, for example, back in the 60s the station's logo looked like this and it changed to this in the 70s. Get the idea. You can't descibe that with words, that's why we have pictures. So, yes, it is helpful. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 05:23

helpful, yes, significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic no. as topic refers to the whole article not the item in question. β^_command 05:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Then we are back to the old argument of what is helpful and what is significant, and to whom. What is significant to you isn't necessarily significant to me — that is where the language fails. Who decides? There is clearly no consensus. You're using your own personal opinion of whether or not the logos significantly increase your understanding of the television station and applying it to the community as a whole. That's the "do I like it" standard. As for NFCC #3, (I think this is a good time for my /facepalm,) one logo can never portray what is intended, nor can prose alone. The images are critical to the information being conveyed, so there is no violation of NFCC #3. Period. End of story. I'm beginning to question your earlier statement, "If an article has the text and commentary to support multiple logos I will gladly defend the usage", as it is beginning to seem that there really is no level at which you will defend the usage. Well, thanks for the discussion anyway. I'm out. dhett ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:48, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Dhett on this one. Being "out" of this conversation sounds like a good idea. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 06:14

But what is the significance of the old logo in the context of describing the station? Again, there may be cases where the station logo was highly significant to understanding the station's history, but my guess is 95% of the time, this isn't the case, it was just a logo change to keep up with the times. It becomes pure decoration. --M 05:27, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You think it is easy to describe a logo to someone. OK, discribe, in 10 words or less, the logo to your left including the time it was used. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 05:33

Please read policy, we dont have to describe that logo to understand a station. β^_command 05:35, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Not what I asked, if you think it is easy to describe a logo, try it. 10 words or less. You can't. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 05:36

I dont care what you asked. Im talking policy, also read WP:NFCC#9 do not use non-free media outside articles. it fails WP:NFCC#8 β^_command 05:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

You aren't talking policy, you are talking your version of policy. You can't describe a logo in 10 words or less for the sole reason of it requires the user, the reader, to see it. That is why both of you can't do it. You have to see it with your eyes, which requires a gallery. A gallery which has been approved, under the fair-use law by Mike Godwin, legal counsel for Wikipedia and not you. Law trumps policy. - • • November 2, 2008 @ 05:41

Actually, Betacommand is correct here. All Mike has said is that it wouldn't likely be illegal to use these images. I would tend to agree, and would think it's certainly unlikely we'd be sued over it in any case. But we're a free content project. We don't use nonfree content just because the law allows us to. We use it only when it significantly increases a reader's understanding of the subject. In most cases, seeing what an old logo looks like would not significantly increase a reader's understanding of the subject (that TV station). That is what renders the images unacceptable in most cases. On the other hand, there may be exceptions, where an old logo is iconic or otherwise genuinely necessary. But likely, these cases are rare exceptions, and as a rule the old logos fail #8 (and possibly #1 as well, since they're replaceable and replaced by the current logo). Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Seeing this debate, one has to ask if the Wikipedia TV Project and it's sister projects needs abit more oversight or some sort of other intervention when it comes to image useage. Drawing up a past issue, I have to note the TBN Logo spread over 150 articles issue, and the subsequent firestorm it caused. And just recently, I got called to task about some edits I made, wherein A Man in Black cited the legal consuel opinion. Furthermore, when things like this are in some articles, one has to wonder what else is wrong with other TV articles on Wikipedia as well. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 13:14, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

So.....any progress? We getting sued by the networks, Wikipedia policy trumps US Law....We found Aliens?--293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 08:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Incredible. The frik'n lawyer for the outfit says its doable and the exclusionists still have to argue it. Hairsplitting. Bad faith. Seems like it needs to be delivered by a divine being and then carved in stone. But then again, that doesn't really work either does it...? Just appalling through and through. Kinda worth it though - in a twisted voyeuristic sort of way - to see Betacommand place his personal opinion above that of the company's legal counsel. What mindboggling hubris. Its looking like it'll take an oak stake through the heart or something. Wiggy! (talk) 23:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if this is offensive, but your a fucking dumbshit. Just because Godwin says something is legal does not mean it meets policy standards. yeah its legal to use non-free content but take a look at the German wikipedia they dont use it at all. you obviously have not passed basic secondary school since you cannot tell the difference between legal and within policy. please go back to school and study the difference before attacking someone who knows both policy and the law. β^_command 23:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Awesome. Do I get some sort of barnstar for being cursed out and crapped on by Betacommand? I thought you were on some sort of good behaviour parole? Pure poison. <sigh> Wiggy! (talk) 00:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Betacommand has been blocked for that particular failure of WP:CIVIL. However, that doesn't alter the fact that he's completely correct that "legal" does not, and will never, equal "within Wikipedia policy". 00:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

So are the galleries legit or not? The issue has been raised, I want to see some closure on the matter so that I can get onto other things. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I've not seen any usable argument from those wishing to keep these that explains why the gallery of non-free logos are exceptional to WP:NFCC (particularly #3 and #8) and should be kept. --M 11:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

As an outside opinion, and looking only at WJW-TV#Logos, I would say that the images do significantly increase my understanding of the topic. A TV station logo is a crucial piece of its branding, and the section provides a look at how that branding has changed over time (and illustrates the coming of the colour-TV era). Without the images, the commentary would be sterile. I'd actually prefer to see them interspersed in the text describing the station's history, where they would provide an even more significant illustration of the progress through time. Just my opinion, of course. Franamax (talk) 18:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with that. Tracing the evolution of the public branding of the station does strike me as encyclopedic, and something that an article should cover. I'd also suggest that if the use of the image is not considered both significant and minimal, then it is not likely to be considered legal. (per the first and the third of the US fair-use tests). Jheald (talk) 19:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

And as I pointed out elsewhere, it doesn't really help add value to an article when words can suffice. It's like arguing that the various incarnations of corporate mascots like Tony the Tiger needs to be traced via images of his appearances on TV or other media. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 05:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

As I said above, if someone can discribe a logo, then there is nothing to talk about. You can't discribe a television station logo, you have to see it. If you can discribe it, please go ahead. - • • November 11, 2008 @ 05:54

To some extent I agree that there is a possibility of historical relevance. However, there is a huge slippery slope here if they are only there to help visualize what the logos looked like, and no other details, as then I can tell you people will argue for discography and episode lists images in the same fashion. Identification of the current station's logo is fine (as we generally allow a single non-free image of a logo to "brand" any commercial product page), but unless an old logo has a meaning specific to the history of the station that can be explain why, particularly to a reader that may never have been local to the television station at any point, it is necessary to include it, old logos are not useful to the point that we should break our free content goals. --M 06:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

There have been some users who think having "commentary" under the images would kinda clear this FU vs. NFCC thing up. Whether it would or not, I don't know. I just think it would be very hard to describe an image and would be easier to just have that image there so you can see and go "so that's what it looks like". Easier and not as many words. Yes, I know that gets into a whole different worm can, but for this, it is easier. - • • November 11, 2008 @ 07:01

Fair use of media to illustrate points about a piece of classical music

I have encountered a thorny problem with the article String quartets opus 20 (Haydn). I started including musical examples to illustrate different points in the article. I thought I was following Wikipedia guidelines for fair use of media files: the examples were of reduced fidelity and shorter than 30 seconds. They were, in my view, essential for an understanding of the article, and made points that could not possibly be made in text.

However, I got dinged on the grounds that "it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed media could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information."

Well, there are no freely licensed recordings of the opus 20 quartets, believe me, I searched high and low for them. When I addressed this problem to Graham, he clarified the policy for me as follows:

The guidelines say nothing about how difficult a replacement would be; if it's possible to make a free recording of a work, because the work is in the public domain, then no fair use recordings of it are allowed. I think that's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. Either get (or make) your own recordings of illustrative passages released under a free license, or use MIDI. The only time non-free recordings are allowed for classical music in the public domain is for illustrating the distinctive styles of artists, like the recordings at Glenn Gould.

Need I point out that, though it is theoretically possible to make a free recording of the work, in practice that is not an option. Hire a string quartet? Hire a recording studio? And what if the composition is not a string quartet, but a Mahler symphony?

The operative word here is "reasonably". Freely licensed media cannot be reasonably created in this case.

Certainly under existing law in the United States, using a 30-second snippet of a commercial recording at reduced fidelity to illustrate a point in an academic article is fair use. So there is no legal reason for this policy. The desire to make Wikipedia a repository of free information is laudable, and one that should be supported; but disallowing musical examples in an article about a composition is pushing that desire ad absurdum. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

MIDI software is another option. But unfortunately, Graham87 is correct - even if it doesn't exist, a free replacement is possible, and thus any non-free audio sample for a PD music piece is going to be nixed. The same is true for photos of living persons - a non-free image cannot replace what could be a free one, even if one doesn't exist today. --M 06:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Then I suggest the guideline be corrected, with the word "reasonably" replaced by "theoretically" or "conceivably". That will prevent mere mortals like myself from being confused. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

For many smaller-scale kinds of pieces, we do have free samples - either made by wikipedians themselves, or, in a surprising number of cases, made available as publicity soundbites by professional performers. Student ensembles might be another good place to go negotiating if you seek a free recording. But I'd tend to agree with Ravpapa that there is a point where the sheer size and difficulty of a work makes a free recording virtually impossible, thus crossing the line from being a "reasonable" possibiliy to being merely a theoretical one. Think of Wagner opera. I can't see where such a work would ever be performed (at acceptable quality) outside a heavily commercial, professional context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree there - another example would be the finale of the 1812 overture (you're not going to easily find cannons to use for a public domain recording). But here's my test here: I checked yesterday after responding and found at least 2 sources for MIDI files (copyrighted in a manner not permissible by WP's free content, unfortunately) for the specific songs in question - thus I'm pretty sure that there's a way to recreate a free content sample via MIDI (at worst) for a four-person string quartet, and thus replace non-free. I doubt the same can be done for a Wagner Opera or the 1812 Overture (number of voices, the vocal part of the Wagner, etc.). We do the same qualifications for BLP's - there's a point where we accept that a person may be reclusive enough to allow a non-free image if that non-free image is critical to understanding the person or other exceptional means. --M 12:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

MIDI is fine for some things, but in this context it would be a flop. For example, I want to add an example of how Haydn uses the cello in opus 20 number 2, playing in a register above the second violin and viola. Midi players I have heard do not distinguish between cellos and violins - all the instruments sound pretty much the same. So there would be no way for the listener to the Midi playback to get the point of the example.

If you read the article, you will see that what makes these string quartets remarkable is the textures Haydn creates and the way he uses these textures to convey an emotion. This would all be lost with Midi examples. --Ravpapa (talk) 14:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I can follow you completely, it would indeed be great to have a proper audio illustration there, and MIDI won't cut it. But still, on "replaceability" grounds, I guess a string quartet is really still within the reach of what could reasonably be created. Are there no wikipedians around who have friends at a conservatory? Heck, send a few violinists my way and I'll do the cello part myself... By the way, that's a fantastic article you wrote there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

You would seriously say that asking four seperate people to spend the time to play a piece simply to be on Wikipedia -- a piece they may have never played before? You say you can play cello, but I'd question if you knew ANYTHING about music (and this isn't against civility here, purposefully), because I can't imagine anyone who knows what goes into even a bad performance of any group recording would say such a thing. No, no matter the theoretical possibility, it's really not reasonable that someone could get a free performance of any old public domain music, outside of the most popular pieces or luck of the draw. And where do you put a top on reasonability? An octet? A piece for 23 strings? Or is anything orchestral fine, even the largest one might need? I might agree that a piano piece or a guitar piece is reasonable, but anything else really needs to be allowed. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 11:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is a shocking idea that tends to be effective, ask a professional orchestra to release a recording under a CC or like license, Most of the time if you do it properly they will gladly release at least a part of the music if not the full recording under a free(er) license. It works all the time with non-free images. β^_command 17:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

All these are great suggestions. Play it yourself, or ask a professional quartet if they happen to have a recording sitting around of Haydn opus 20 number 2, that they would like to release under a GDFL license. Or get some conservatory students whom you might know to spend a day or two learning the quartet and recording it.

Great suggestions. But, to my mind, quite on the other side of "reasonable". Most people who write articles about music on the Wikipedia do not have a string quartet hanging around that could play this repertoire at a level that would serve as a respectable example. Most do not know any professional quartets, and, if they do, the probability that the quartet has a recording of the piece in question, or is willing to take the time (several weeks of rehearsals for serious musicians) to make one gratis is less than reasonable. And as for conservatory students - I know a few of these, and most of them don't have time to talk on the phone for more than a minute and a half, let alone take a day or two out to learn and record a quartet for the Wikipedia.

As it happens, I know a lot of musicians, professional and amateur. I am, apparently like Fut.Perf., a player myself. So I am better situated than most to rustle up a free example or two. And, trust me, it is not reasonable to believe that this is something that can be done.

What is reasonable - indeed essential - is to search the existing archives of free music to see if a free recording is available, before resorting to hacking up a commercial recording, cutting out a 30-second chunk and mussing up the fidelity. The ISGM archive is one place to look. Unfortunately, the CC license used by the Gardner is not acceptable to Wikipedia, because it disallows commercial use. And that is really the only archive that I know of that has a substantial collection of chamber music. When that search fails, we should be able to use a commercial recording, following, of course, all the Wikipedia rules for fair use. --Ravpapa (talk) 18:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I was thinking less in terms of "go and ask them to perform this specific piece for you, on demand", but rather in terms of: try to get them to release soundbites of whatever they happened to play in last week's recital, or whatever they are currently rehearsing. Thus slowly building up a repository of sound examples that will hopefully be useful once somebody writes an article about the piece or the composer. Somebody, sometime, is going to play Haydn's op.20. It's just like with, say, photographs of remote geographical places. You can't easily ask somebody to travel there just to make a photograph for you. What you can do is encourage people, if they happened to visit some remote place, to release photographs just in case. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I think Raypapa had a good idea above, as "theoretically" or "conceivably" does come closer to what replaceability means. It doesn't mean that replacement would be easy, quick, or possible by any given time frame. It simply means it is possible. FutPerf's idea of MIDI may not be a bad one, as well as asking professional orchestras to release a short snippet of a work they've played (and in return, they could do it under the CC-BY-SA, and get attribution for their work on one of the top-ten websites in the world.) They wouldn't even have to release the whole piece for it to be useful, just a sample to illustrate the work. As we saw with biographies of living people, editors really will get creative about finding, requesting, and/or creating free content—but that only happened after we barred the nonfree type from those articles. After all, if there's a nonfree file that will remain allowable so long as someone doesn't create or get hold of a free equivalent, we're actually providing a disincentive to providing free content for that purpose. That's exactly counter to our core mission—educational material that's free licensed. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:05, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Just how creative have people been? Has there been any paparazzi-type stalking? --NE2 20:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Hrm, Wikipedia:Wikiproject Stalking perhaps? (Please tell me that's going to be a red link...) :) Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:36, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I'm a pianist, and in my personal opinion, I could definitely record most piano pieces (albeit not perfectly, but good enough for Wikipedia) if it was needed here. Since this is a string quartet, I see no reason that this cannot be recorded. If this was a symphony, I would argue differently, but I'm almost sure that one could walk into a musical conservatory and find a string quartet that would be willing to record for Wikipedia. While it would take time to learn, it's mostly good publicity for those groups who would need it. 00:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

We do have a recording of the 1812 Overture, which is adequate for showing what the piece sounds like, but if a free recording from a professional orchestra came up complete with cannons, we would gladly snap it up. On MIDI, it should be possible to record a string quartet using high-quality sound fonts or on a high-quality synthesizer, and convert that recording to Ogg, as is done at Image:Haydn Sonata Hob XVI 40 1st movement.ogg. I do have a synthesizer that could be used for this purpose, where the string instruments have a distinctive sound, but I don't know how to directly record its sound onto a PC. This method would be harder for string instruments because of the importance of bowing and articulations. I am still amazed that we have a free recording of all of Chopin's Études, so almost anything is possible. Graham 06:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

From the way things are going, there seems to be some agreement that, for small ensembles, it is within reason that an editor could somehow engineer a free media sample, but for anything orchestral or operatic, it is unreasonable to expect an editor to enlist an orchestra to do a free sample, so an FU piece of media would be permitted.

Is there also agreement that the word "reasonably" in the policy should be qualified? Perhaps changed to "theoretically"?

I can't say I'm particularly happy about this, but it looks like the best we're going to get. If we agree, can we have this written into the policy? --Ravpapa (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

If not an additional part of that section or a footnote, the "reasonably" should be explained out with specific examples. We already can go with what we know of living persons, and this discussion is good for musical works out of copyright (the works themselves, not the performances). --M 15:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

They strike me as well within the realm of reasonable, or at least per Wikipedia general standards. There are very few things in the modern world that it's trivial for everyone to get a free image of. European architecture and people would be impossible for me to get a free image of, without calling on a hypothetical European friend who could take it for me. That doesn't mean that using a non-free image would be acceptable there.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Double cover images used in video game articles

The following articles are about video games that were released in pairs (two complementary versions of the same games). One cover image is enough per article yet several contributors want to maintain the usage of two cover images.

• Pokémon Diamond and Pearl
• Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen
• Pokémon Gold and Silver
• Pokémon Red and Blue
• Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire
• The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages (featured article)

Thoughts on what should be done? Megata Sanshiro (talk) 11:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Given the product duality, I think these are reasonable cases where both covers are ok - each is a separate game even if the share the basic programming - it also helps to quickly identify that the games are paired as well. If it basically were the same game but had 2+ different covers that did not have any significant difference between them, that would be a different question, but each case above is two separate products. --M 12:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Pokkemon games are known for the "dual-version" strategy, so if its notable for that, 2 covers can increase the reader's understanding of this abnormality. ViperSnake151 12:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Howabout you just combine them into one image per article? If the copyright is owned by Nintendo, it would just make more sense to have one image with the relevant info instead of having two separate images with two pieces of nearly identical info.--293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 11:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

PDYN?

Being that this image is only comprised of typefaces, individual words, slogans, and simple geometric shapes, wouldn't it then fall under {{PD-textlogo}}? — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 22:37, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

the issue is, its not a logo. β^_command 23:14, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're right, of course. But if it is wholly constitutive of the elements I mentioned, why does it matter whether it's a "logo" or another conglomeration of simple elements? Why are logos exempt from falling under copyright for the same content? — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 01:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what Betacommand's focus on logos is all about... The issue is whether it is {{PD-ineligible}}. It's a close call in my opinion. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree it's not a logo, but I would have a hard time calling it PD. Mind you, its use in the article in question if considered non-free seems totally appropriate, so I'd be safe and tag non-free. --M 20:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Presumably pd_THOR wanted it on the main page, but it's moot now. --NE2 20:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)