Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)

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Glossary of Terms

For the purposes of discussions on this page, the following terms are taken to mean the following:

• Notable, in the real world, means worth of notice.^[1],[2]. However, the encultured meaning of the term within the wikipedian community is poorly defined, but definately different (See WP:N). If a topic is sufficiently notable, then it merits an article. It is used of topics rather than articles, and there is some disagreement as to what the topic of any given article is. As a shorthand, editors usually use "notable" to mean "sufficiently notable to merit an article" and "non-notable" to mean "insufficiently notable to merit an article". The notability guidelines exist to help determine notability, and it is policy that failure to meet the relevent notability guideline constitutes a reason for deletion.
• General Notability Criteria (GNC) refers to the catch-all criterion in WP:N itself, that may indicate the notability of any topic. Failure to fulfil the GNC does not necessarily mean a topic is not notable; subject-specific criteria may be fulfilled instead.
• Subject-specific criteria are other criteria, established by consensus, that indicate notability of topics within some particular area. Examples may be found in WP:PROF, WP:BK, etc.
• Spinout means articles that, conceptually at least, started life as a section of another article and have become an article on there own. Other guidelines do not state whether they should be considered part of the original article for any purpose; consensus on whether WP:FICT should hasn't been determined, and no broader consensus on the matter is apparent.

Topical

From [3]

• "reference works that share the lexicon's purpose of aiding readers of literature generally should be encouraged rather than stifled"
• "Lexicon appropriates too much of Rowling's creative work for its purposes as a reference guide".

seems like this kind of debate isn't just limited to Wikipedia. Guest9999 (talk) 01:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Dead links

{{editprotect}} Not interested in getting into the debate here, I just wanted to note that the link to gaming-wiki.com under the "Relocating non-notable fictional material" section seems to be a dead link. It's a poker spamvertising landing page now. The page is protected, so I can't remove it. 66.18.231.70 (talk) 00:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Confirmed. Link needs removing. Added an edit protect request here.-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. Replaced with WoWWiki, which is the largest site on Wikia. Seemed like a reasonable substitution. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 09:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

A minor point, but Wookieepedia is still a tad larger than WoWWiki. I am however content with WoW's link. ;P --Izno (talk) 12:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Fiction Survey 2008 draft

This is a draft of a survey. It is not finalized yet. I've created a survey to find out where consensus lies on various fictional topics. The first draft is in my userspace and is not ready to be presented to the entire community yet. I would appreciate any comments and criticisms and suggestions for the survey. This is an effort similar to Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion/Policy consensus which was created to discuss recurring themes regarding entire categories of articles, before it was later moved to Wikipedia:Centralized discussion. If people think it's a good idea, I could post it to Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)/Fiction Survey 2008 or Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion/Fiction Survey 2008 and spread the word about it (maybe with the centralized discussion template, at the village pump, a watchlist notice, etc). We could even contact random editors to participate. It would be nice if at least 300 to 500 people could respond to it if it goes live. I would like participation to be as wide as possible. It could get very large, so if it goes live I think there should be at least 35 sub-pages with 3 fill-in-the-blank questions each (and each subpage placed in Category:Fiction Survey 2008 to make it possible to check related changes). It may be that an inclusion guideline for all fiction is too broad and guidelines for specific subjects could be created instead. The survey is meant to generate discussion on this guideline since it seems discussion has stalled. If you think the survey is a bad idea and think something else would be better, please say so. Please tell me what you think about it here, or on the talk page of the draft. Thank you. --Pixelface (talk) 20:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't this (generally) covered in the notability shindig they've had going? I'm not sure another poll is what we need. ⁽⁾ 22:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

No. This survey is about specific categories of articles, something that Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise does not cover. Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise was created because someone misunderstood this very simple sentence in WP:N, "A topic is presumed to be sufficiently notable to merit an article if it meets the general notability guidelines below, or if it meets an accepted subject-specific standard listed in the table at the right." WP:FICT is a subject-specific standard. I don't even know how the questions in Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise were decided upon, nor what conclusions can be made from it so far. If the arbitrators want a notability guideline for fiction, I think this is a good idea to jumpstart discussions on one. --Pixelface (talk) 23:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The RFC included how we use sub-notability guidelines like FICT; the entire course of the discussion leading up to it was about how FICT interacted, so what FICT has to become was covered by the RFC. --M 01:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The relationship between "SNGs" and the "GNG" is the fourth sentence in the intro of WP:N: "A topic is presumed to be sufficiently notable to merit an article if it meets the general notability guidelines below, or if it meets an accepted subject-specific standard listed in the table at the right." That sentence is still in WP:N, so I'm having a hard time understanding why the RFC was started. Did people in the RFC say that sentence should be removed or changed from WP:N? --Pixelface (talk) 04:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The RFC was partially there to make sure it was still valid, if SNGs were still needed, or if SNGs should have more freedom to allow topics that the GNG would not normally allow. The wording at WP:N as it reads is presently unclear and so the RFC was to try to resolve that. --M 04:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

To make sure what was still valid? The fourth sentence in WP:N? Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise doesn't mention that sentence from WP:N at all. Instead, Randomran wrote "To what extent can subject-specific guidelines re-write or override the General Notability Guideline?" The idea that SNGs "rewrite" or "override" the GNG seems to have been made up solely by Randomran. I think the sentence "A topic is presumed to be sufficiently notable to merit an article if it meets the general notability guidelines below, or if it meets an accepted subject-specific standard listed in the table at the right." is perfectly clear. How is the RFC supposed to make Randomran understand that sentence in WP:N if the RFC does not even mention that sentence? How is the RFC supposed to find out what editors think that sentence means if the RFC does not even mention that sentence? And how is the RFC supposed to see if SNGs are still needed when there is no notice of the RFC at any of the SNG talkpages (WT:PROF, WT:BK, WT:MOVIE, WT:MUSIC, WT:NUMBER, WT:CORP, WT:BIO, or WT:WEB)? FICT wasn't even considered a SNG as of July 18, 2008[4], so how does that RFC apply to WP:FICT? What wording in the intro at WP:N is unclear? Randomran created an AFD on his first (visible) edit, and linked to WP:NOTE, WP:OR, and WP:OC, so I find it impossible to believe that Randomran does not understand that sentence in NOTE — a sentence that existed in NOTE when Randomran linked to NOTE on his first edit: "A subject is presumed to be sufficiently notable if it meets the general notability guideline below, or if it meets an accepted subject specific standard listed in the table to the right." FICT was listed as an inclusion guideline at NOTE at the time Randomran linked to NOTE. Am I missing something? --Pixelface (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea is right but the approach is not. As David states above, the RFC on WP:N makes it clear about that a topic (including fictional elements) can have its own article only when there is notability shown; the question mark we seem to be trying to figure out is when it is appropriate to have lists of non-notable elements to make sure they are not indiscriminate. Also the number of questions is going to be overly daunting to anyone coming into it; even with 10 proposals on the RFC, !voter exhaustion was apparent.

My suggestion is to focus this on two aspects: what is appropriate notability or sources that show it for singular fictional element topic articles, and to define what type of lists are appropriate when elements are non-notable. I would also avoid getting into too many subcategories - let users decide if "tv characters" need to be differently as general fictional characters in their responses, for example. The way I would do the survey based on is is two parts:

• "What sources are sufficient to show notability of the following?" and leave this to a list of 10 or 12 top level elements such as "characters" , "episodes or published serial volumes", etc. (Books and films are already covered by other sources). Let users expand if they think they need different notability requirements for various different elements (eg tv characters vs movie characters)
• "What type of lists of non-notable fiction elements are appropriate?" pointing to the same list of 10-12 elements above, but allow users to expand this as well.

Both of these would help , in light of the RFC results, to better address what FICT should look like. Mind you, while a survey, what results will have to be put to a consensus, and what may gain majority in a consensus will be vastly different. --M 23:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

People can answer as many questions as they want in the survey. If they think one criterion should be applied to every fictional character, every fictional element, every fictional element, that's 3 answers they have to give. Of the two main questions in the RFC on WP:N, one pre-supposes that "notability" should be used when deciding whether a Wikipedia article should exist or not, and the other asks how subject-specific guidlines should be interpreted alongside WP:N. WP:N was created because "nn" was commonly used in deletion rationales. That would be like creating Wikipedia:Coolness because "lame" was commonly used in deletion rationales, or creating Wikipedia:Smart because "stupid" was commonly used in deletion rationales. "Exhaustion" in that RFC may be a result of the pre-canned statements users were asked to vote on. In the survey, editors simply answer as many fill-in-the-blank questions as they want. Where are the results of the RFC if it's not finished? As of right now, I see A1 (59 support / 129 oppose / 17 neutral), A1.2 (73 support / 69 oppose / 6 neutral), A2 (82 support / 57 oppose / 2 neutral), A3 (51 support / 48 oppose / 8 neutral), B1 (26 support / 64 oppose / 6 neutral), B2 (65 support / 17 oppose / 3 neutral), B3 (23 support / 30 oppose / 19 neutral), B4 (14 support / 62 oppose / 6 neutral), B5 (14 support / 53 oppose / 5 neutral), B6 (40 support / 21 oppose / 9 neutral), B7 (4 support / 0 oppose / 2 neutral). By my estimation, B2 appears to have the most support. But how would that change the content of WP:FICT? Will it change the content of WP:BIO? Anything in Template:Notabilityguide? --Pixelface (talk) 00:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Those are !votes. We are waiting for a second (and third, even) opinion after mine own on how to interpret all the responses, ideally from someone never involved in notability discussion, and that just takes time to find someone invested. However, I will point out that A1 - allowing any spinout without notability - is strongly opposed and perhaps the clearest one we can build from for now.

As for the length of the survey, I look at it and feel exhausted - I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to figure out how to deal with these specific areas, but by breaking it up as you have, it does bias the discussion - I would like to see input naturally develop if, say, tv characters are treated differently than comic book characters, instead of presuming a difference. Again, I'm trying to help here - I feel this is a definitely move to rewrite FICT, but we want do it right to end issues for the long future, and we don't want to invalid what global consensus has given us from the RFC. --M 01:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the survey is fairly long, but fiction is a fairly broad topic. How does breaking it up bias the discussion? If an editor thinks there should be one criterion for every fictional character, every fictional element, every fictional work, they can give the same answer to those three questions or three answers to those three questions. If an editor thinks different types of things should be treated differently (like WP:POLITICIAN, WP:DIPLOMAT, WP:ATHLETE, WP:CREATIVE), they can fill in the blank. The survey doesn't presume a difference. It allows for a difference of opinions to be heard. I suppose if you want, the first survey could just ask 6 questions:

• Should one and only one standard be applied to every fictional character when deciding whether or not it should have an article on Wikipedia? If yes, what should that standard be?
• Should one and only one standard be applied to every fictional element when deciding whether or not it should have an article on Wikipedia? If yes, what should that standard be?
• Should one and only one standard be applied to every work of fiction when deciding whether or not it should have an article on Wikipedia? If yes, what should that standard be?

It appears to me there already are different standards for different types of fictional works (WP:BK, WP:MOVIE, WP:WEB), different types of people, and different things (see Template:Notabilityguide), so that's why I broke the survey up. Whether different types of fictional things are treated differently is up to the community. I don't see how the survey would invalidate anything coming out of the RFC. But even if it did, consensus is not immutable. So what is the global consensus at the RFC? --Pixelface (talk) 04:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I've already described why having too questions will lead to voter exhaustion but the other point to make is that we need to avoid creating too many rules (eg WP:BURO]). FICT should be as simple as it needs to be to reflect consensus, and thus we should start on the assumption of the most simplest rules and work inwards to more specifics as they are needed, which is why starting with as few questions as possible and letting the responders reply with what they think are exceptions is better than trying to exhaust all exceptions and making the reader decide for every case. As for the RFC, while the input phase is closed we're still waiting for a second and third outside opinion to review the comments to provide what they see as the global consensus but there are a few obvious things: that SNGs are still needed though need better scrutiny, that articles on topics have to show notability with respect to the GNG but at the same time the SNGs may help to delineate sources that can better show notability for a given topic, and that there's allowances for collecting non-notable topics into lists but these must be discriminate and avoid too much cruft. Thus, in relation to the survey you are trying to write, trying to ask "when is a character article appropriate?", by its wording, bypasses some of these RFC results; instead, the question should likely be "what sources should be available for a character to have its own article?" or something of that nature. --M 13:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm with David and Masem, this seems to heavily repeat the RfC as it covers much of what was already covered there. It really seems to be trying to argue the issue again from another side when, as far as I know, the RfC is still on-going. Until that is done and the results finalized, should anything addressing the areas where consensus isn't clear be started. To do this now gives the appearance of "my point of view is not being supported, so I'll keep arguing it elsewhere" (i.e. it appears like a form of forum shopping. Let the RfC finish before arguing its results. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

What does the survey repeat from the RFC? The survey doesn't argue any issues. It's a survey where editors fill in the blank. The RFC is about WP:N. The RFC on N does absolutely nothing to rewrite FICT. If anything, the RFC on N is "forum shopping", because people took the conflict at WT:FICT over to WT:N. WT:FICT is the place to talk about changes to WP:FICT. I'm not "arguing the results" of the RFC on N. I don't even know what the "results" are. Four days ago the person who started the RFC, Randomran, asked "time to close?" and said "I think it might be a good idea to close up this RFC. Is there anyone who objects?" on the talk page. If you want the fiction survey started after the RFC on N is finished, that's fine with me. Right now I'm giving everyone a chance to offer up any suggestions they may have for the survey. If you don't want people to have an opportunity to review the survey before it goes live, you can keep on removing it from {{fiction notice}}. --Pixelface (talk) 07:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Arb. Break: Impact of WP:N RFC on FICT

I'm combining my comments to two of Pixelface's replies above since they're connected.

The whole issue with the failed FICT was two-fold. Inclusionists felt that FICT did not allow for fictional elements that lacked secondary sources to have articles, a statement that is in direct conflict with the basic principle of the GNG. Thus, one question raised is how immutable is the requirement of secondary sources in SNGs. The second issue with the failed FICT was the allowance for lists of characters and episodes and the possibly of spinoffs, all lacking secondary sources but supporting a notable topic; deletionists stating that it would allow for too much cruft. Thus a second question raised is exactly what is the nature of spinouts or list articles with respect to the GNG.

Those two questions, while specific to FICT, needed to be handled in the most generic manner possible as to make sure fictional elements weren't getting special treatment over other fields. Thus, this turned to WP:N, where specific guidance as listed above was found to be lacking. Thus, at the point of starting the RFC, it was considering the fact that WP:N was no longer a fixed point, and any consensus-determined changes to it would be put through another consensus process based on the results of the RFC. The lead statement of WP:N, that "topics either meet the GNG or an SNG" was found to be a point of contention in relationship to the first question above, so it made sense to verify what exactly that meant to editors. Based on my analysis (but I am not calling my analysis the authoritative one), it seems clear that "either/or" is not what people read this as, instead that "topics must meet the GNG; SNGs can define more limiting cases, cases where sources are presumed to exist, or types of sources that may demonstrate notability". So the first question, in how it reflects back to FICT, is that FICT has to support a strong assertion of the GNG - fictional element articles must be sourced, but we have a bit of leeway in what determines that sourcing. We should have the survey figure out what people believe to be appropriate sourcing or what elements presumably lead to sourcing to allow FICT to still line up with the GNG.

The second question on lists is also something not clearly lined out in WP:N nor anywhere else. WP:N applies to topics, not articles, and while spinouts were expressly disallowed by the RFC, the allowance for certain types of non-notable lists were acceptable. We know this is the case from countless AFD that merge non-notable characters and episodes into respective list articles. So while there does need to be a more firm statement that such lists are allowable when they are given strong criteria to prevent indiscriminate lists, we can safely approach FICT and determine what types of lists of fictional elements are appropriate as well, keeping in mind that consensus warns against lists that can grow crufty. This should be another point of the survey is to determine the bounds of what non-notable fictional element lists are acceptable or unacceptable.

But again, I preface all this by saying this is based on my analysis - I don't consider myself unbiased or separated from the discussion, only someone in the center that wants to get this all resolves so we can all go back to working on the encyclopedia, and thus I'm just listing out what I read to be the main points. Randoman is trying to get at least two more people to read through the comments to provide additional analysis so that we have a clear path of how to move forward on WP:N and subsequently the SNGs (including FICT). There is no reason that at the same time we cannot have your suggested survey to try to work out elements I've outlined above to be prepared for this, but the key is that FICT cannot move from essay to guideline until we've gotten WP:N cleaned up, so that there is no conflicting advice between the two. That is my primary concern (length being the other) of your current survey - it does not start from a point where the RFC leaves us but instead almost begs for allowing any and all fictional elements regardless of notability to have articles. If we start the survey from the point that we know that non-notable fictional element articles will not be allowed, and instead how to define what sources we can use for notability and what to do in cases when elements are non-notable (grouping to a list), then we're more in line with the RFC and can have a better shot at moving forward. --M 15:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Masem, I think everyone here knows what the word "or" means. That sentence referring to the table (Template:IncGuide, later renamed Template:Notabilityguide) has existed in one form or another in WP:N since Radiant! rewrote it in September 2006. The fourth sentence in WP:N has always meant either/or. And it's never been intended to trump the results of an AFD debate. That sentence is not mentioned at all in the RFC so how could the RFC possibly be able to determine what that sentence means to editors? Your analysis is that "topics must meet the GNG"? That's obviously false. First, the GNG is not a policy and thus can only give recommendations, not requirements. Second, whole categories of topics on Wikipedia are allowed due to what they are: mountains, settlements, fish, etc. Your analysis is wrong. If that RFC has to do with all SNGs, why is there no notice of the RFC on any of the SNG talkpages? If what you're saying is true, the RFC at N affects WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC, but it doesn't affect WP:FICT at all — because FICT is no longer an SNG.

You say "spinouts were expressly disallowed by the RFC", but where do you get that from? I see 63% against "Every spin-out is notable." That's like building a man out of straw, knocking it down, and claiming you've won the boxing match. I see 58% support for "Every spin-out must prove notability." I see 48% support for "SNGs can define that some spin-outs are notable." I see 76% support for "SNGs can outline sources that assert notability" and that proposal calls a gold record a "source". That just redefines what WP:N already says: "A topic is presumed to be sufficiently notable to merit an article if it meets the general notability guidelines below, or if it meets an accepted subject-specific standard listed in the table at the right." If an album is certified gold, that is evidence of notability. If an athlete has competed in a fully professional league, that is evidence of notability (and supposedly a "source" now?). If a film has received a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking, that is evidence of notability. So, when it comes to fictional characters, what is evidence of notability? Hence, the survey. Lists are already covered by Wikipedia:Lists and WP:CLN and WP:SAL, but the survey asks about lists too. The survey doesn't "beg" for anything. It asks editors what makes an articles on a given topic acceptable to exist. That is all. It doesn't use the loaded word "notability." Editors just fill in the blank. I suggested this to you over four months ago [5] after you asked me to participate in resolving the issue. If you want, the survey doesn't have to ask about specific categories — it could all be fill in the blank.

I would say the RFC on N has no impact on any of the SNGs, because none of the SNG talkpages even know it's going on. In my mind, it's clear that Randomran started Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise based on this conversation [6] [7] [8] me and Randomran had during the RFC in June, and Randomran's misunderstanding that SNGs "modify", "clarify", or "apply" the GNG. The GNG began as a summary of the SNGs and was later replaced by Uncle G's "primary notability criterion." There is absolutely nothing in WP:N that suggests SNGs "modify", "clarify", "apply", "override", or "rewrite" the GNG. Since August 2003, articles about people have been judged against Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion of biographies, also known as WP:BIO, (later renamed Wikipedia:Notability (people) by Jiy in December 2005 after this requested move) — not WP:N. Articles about people that do not meet BIO have then been judged against N. But ultimately it is editors, and not rules, that do the judging. This is not difficult to understand.

As the editor with the most edits to WT:FICT, I think you are in the center of this — and I have no idea why. You weren't an involved party of E&C2. But I think your heavy involvement here and the lack of progress is telling. Sometimes outside parties can help resolve a dispute. But sometimes outside parties do more harm than good. I appreciate your efforts Masem, but if you've been trying to mediate this dispute, I think it's safe to say you've failed, and you should withdraw. You started an RFC on FICT in June, I participated, and I sat out the rest of it because you didn't like my tone. If you want to see this resolved, you may want to consider stepping away and letting other people try to resolve it. At this point I think a sitewide survey would be the best way of doing that. Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise does nothing to unprotect this page. --Pixelface (talk) 02:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I am trying to help you here make an effective survey that will speedily get us to a working FICT, not trying to hinder you. I just feel that if you present your current survey as is to the same people that participated in the RFC on WP:N, there will be a lot of confusion and disagreement with the RFC results. Mind you, yes, the RFC wasn't announced on the SNGs, but it was announced via a watchlist notice and got much more input from that than the other notices; however, the RFC is technically not closed and if you feel their input is going to make a difference, then by all means post a notice there. Remember, the RFC is a discussion, not voting, so looking at the pure numbers and percentages is not a direct measurement of what consensus says. --M 03:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You can help by editing the survey into a version you consider an "effective survey." You've already suggested several questions. If you don't want to edit the survey, or don't think a survey would be productive, please say so. There are over 8 million registered volunteer editors on this site, and over 159,000 of them have made at least one edit in the last 30 days (according to Special:Statistics). There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to present a survey to just the people that participated in the RFC on N. I would prefer a random sample. If the RFC affects every SNG, I'm sure the people who worked on the SNGs would want to know about it. --Pixelface (talk) 14:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

A simple random sample of editors will suffer from extreme (non)response bias. There's a reason that we don't do things scientifically or democratically; it's impractical and infeasible. ⁽⁾ 15:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I support a survey along these lines - I think the RFC showed a definite lack of consensus one way or another, and that, failing a consensus on the theoretical issues, the next logical move is to try to figure out what our actual operating procedure is and try to codify it.

That said, I think this survey is far too long, and far too demanding, and that it is not likely to work. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Draft proposal

Based on comments at the RfC, and looking at trends on AfD, I've worked out a draft of a new notability guideline for fiction. The goal of the guideline is pragmatic - instead of establishing hard and fast distinctions, or a general principle, it attempts to identify factors that garner de facto consensus, and to describe what will and will not be included. Thus it includes statements that, taken as general principles, are likely to be controversial, but that, in practice, seem to accurately predict outcomes.

The earliest draft is up at User:Phil Sandifer/Fiction proposal. I welcome thoughts on it - does this seem to be a useful way forward? Are there sections that need work? Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Small (edit) nit - large nit (since July??)

Could someone change "Articles on of works" to "Articles on works"? But, uh, this policy/essay/Fly agaric has been protected since July? Wow. Quick, people, the authors are gaining on you.... Shenme (talk) 05:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Fictional elements as part of a larger topic (FEAPOALT)

In order to bring WP:FICT in line with other Wikipedia policies and guidelines, we should move to strike this section on the basis that it is unworkable and inconsistent with the rest Wikipedia:

1. The underlying problem with FEAPOALT is that it contains several assumptions which conflict with the overarching consensus at policy level, which has resulted in WP:FICT becoming an editorial walled garden that suggest that fictional topics should be treated differently from subject areas, such as people. For instance, if there is consensus that a living person is of unproven notability, then there is no evidence that the topic is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia in accordance with WP:BIO, then why should a fictional character be given a different treatment? Even if such a fictional element were to be included, there is a secondary issue that must be addressed: a topic that fails WP:N is also likely to fail other Wikipedia content policies as well, which leaves such a topic open to becoming potential deletion candidate at some point in the future.
2. The section Creating fictional element lists is also out of step with policy consensus. Firstly there is a mistaken assumption in this section that fictional elements which fail WP:N provide some sort of "encyclopedic coverage". However this goes against the principle that an article is encyclopedic if it notable and its content meets Wikipedia content policies as well. Secondly there is also a mistaken assumption that of individually non-notable elements can merit bing grouped together as a list, but this goes against WP:NOT which states that Wikipedia not an indiscriminate collection of information; merely being true or useful does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia.
   
3. My estimate that 95% of all articles and lists about fictional elements (characters, locations, episodes, event and articifacts) fail WP:N, and that the content of those articles fail one or more content polices as well as WP:WAF. If the coverage of fiction is to be improved, then WP:FICT needs to give useful (as opposed to misleading) guidance.

To make WP:FICT as useful guideline once again, we need to jettison these sections, as they are not workable in practise, and do not fit into the framework of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, but also because they are inclusion criteria for topics of unproven notabality that are less discriminating than other subject areas, and giving such a diverse and well sourced subject area such as fiction special treatment when it is not need is an error in judgement. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

While I understand the well-meaning behind the section, the issue is here: "If consensus on a fictional element is that it is of unproven notability, editors should seek to retain the information where it can improve the encyclopedia." I understand that people don't want to sacrifice information, and in certain cases WP:IAR might allow such non-notable info to stay in the purpose of bettering the encyclopedia, but this line basically says that even if it's non-notable, people can stick it somewhere else, such as in a list. I think a more appropriate step is to try to find a way to work without the non-notable content; often, it takes some reorganization, but it's better than forced accommodation of topics. Each and every article 'saved' from the fire in this way should have a proper defense on why the info is being retained, even when non-notable. So, in short, frag the section. ⁽⁾ 13:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Lists of episodes and characters are common practice of articles at AFD, and in line with the general consensus (though still waiting for an absolute neutral review) WP:N RFC that certain expections to the GNG exist for lists of this nature. And again, we come back to the question: if a list of characters or episodes that is part of an article (ignoring size issues) is ok, then what sudden magic distinction does spliting off that list to a separate article make it not ok? There's a reason notability refers to topics, and not to articles; articles are arbitary bounds to make information easier to read on screen. This is not to make articles on single characters or the like without notability ok - those are problematic and should still be trimmed and merged. --M 14:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Lists of characters are okay in the sense that it is expected that there's a certain amount of plot necessary for readers to understand the fiction. Same thing with setting; these aid introduction and (ideally) should help keep the actual plot less confusing and jargon-filled (ex. in Halo the setting explains the events leading up to the game, the important things you have to know: "THESE ARE HALOS. HALOS BAD" et al.) Spinning off lists of characters from single games is a 99.99% bad idea, as there is no real reason the characters cannot be discussed in the work. The trickiness comes in when you're trying to track characters over multiple works, such as multiple games, novels, et al. -- ⁽⁾ 18:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course - We don't have lists of characters from a non-series movie, from a single video game, or other singular works - unless, as in the case of the various Final Fantasy lists, the characters or the grouping of characters has notability on its own. These are the exceptions. Again, I am pretty confident that we can write a set of bright-line rules on when lists of episodes and characters are appropriate and when they are not. --M 19:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I would think we'd need two criteria to be filled: 1) The characters must be demonstrated notable as a whole via reliable secondary sources, and 2) the list significantly benefits navigation and style of multiple articles. Not exactly the most black and white criteria, but if we have #1 we eliminate barely notable articles which will never get to a high level of quality. ⁽⁾ 21:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Masem, the problem with grouping lists of characters from different stories or episodes is that it risks giving rise to synthesis of differing (or even disparate) sources being created, whilst those that don't have any sources at all are likely to be original research.
  To avoid falling into this trap, the jumping off point for the creation of an article or a list should be notability, which is a good indicator of whether or not a topic is "suitable" for inclusion in Wikipedia. A "suitable" topic in this context means that there is sufficient real-world content, context, analysis or criticism from reliable secondary sources to write an article whose content meets Wikipedia content polices. If a topic fails WP:N, then it is highly likely that it will also fail one or more content policies, such as WP:NOT.
  Without trying to belittle the efforts of Phil and Masem at User:Phil Sandifer/Fiction proposal, they face an uphill struggle: a topic that fails WP:N does not have a lot going for it, and faces a difficult task of proving that it is not listcruft, or that it does not fail one of the content policies. A recent disussion about a fictional foxes illustrates this point: if a list is not supported by reliable secondary sources, how can you be sure that the list contents are categorised correctly? I would argue that it is very easy to find faults with lists that are synthesised or based on original research. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this proposal fails both to find support in the recent RFC and with existing practise on Wikipedia. I readily agree that a revised and improved guideline is needed, and I've made a proposal to this effect a few sections up. But this amounts to another in a long list of attempts to ram through a view of notability that justifies controversial deletions that lack consensus. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• If I should be so bold, but I think the consensus at the RFC that the concept of notability should not be disgarded, or that any exemption should be given to a particular subject area. My view is that if we have good rather than misleading guidelines, then contraversial deletions are less likely to occur. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  Personally, I think the consensus at the RFC is that I was right, that policy should be changed to reflect my views, and that AFD practice should and will follow my lead. - A Man In (conspire - past ops) 10:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• What view are they? (I am not familiar with them). --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  Well, I noticed a majority support in the #AMIB is right section, and a plurality (albeit not a majority) of support in the #Do the thing AMIB said section. ¬_¬ (Psssssst. Argue about what the RFC means on its talk page, don't let it leak out all over every related page.) - A Man In (conspire - past ops) 10:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the consensus was that a middle path between applying the GNG strictly to every fiction article and treating fiction articles as sub-articles needs to be forged. Certainly, given the divisiveness of the RFC, I think it has to be taken as a call for a more moderate path than either extreme in some form. So I confess, I'm disheartened to see what amounts to another hard-line deletionist proposal, particularly from someone who did not see fit to offer any comment on my more moderate proposal above. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

the idea that we somehow are creating a special case for fictional elements is ridiculous. Take a look at how many non-notable animals, plants, math theorems, buildings, and roads we have articles about - to compare the stringent requirements of BIO (which only exist because of legal responsibilities against libel) to the requirements practiced by the whole of wikipedia is a flawed argument. This isn't an OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument, this is a wake-up call that the whole of wikipedia does NOT operate on these boxed-in rules and that every single genera handles their notability requirements differently, so we should stop pretending that Fiction articles cannot. -ΖαππερΝαππερ ^Babel_Alexandria 20:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)